Wildcat during the Battle of Britain

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Does anyone know the altitudes for the raids during the BoB? I've read accounts of Ju-88s flying at tree top level. Its hard to imagine He-111s flying above 10,000ft and hitting a target as small an airfield or radar station with accuracy.
 
Hardly fair. The Martlet/Wildcat in the "what if" is a carrier capable aircraft and being carrier capable in that era incurred penalties. Things were moving quickly, a Hurricane Mk1 from 1938 was rubbish compared to exactly the same plane in 1940 with new wings, prop, fuel and armour. The Hurricane and F4F have one thing in common, their replacements were being discussed/designed/prepared long before the war started.
 
pinehilljoe said:
Does anyone know the altitudes for the raids during the BoB? I've read accounts of Ju-88s flying at tree top level. Its hard to imagine He-111s flying above 10,000ft and hitting a target as small an airfield or radar station with accuracy.
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Early raids by level bomber formations were around 10,000 ft at the end of the daylight raids they were 18,000 to 20,000 ft. Small formations of Ju88s could be as high as 24,000 ft
 

What about a Wildcat with 2x .50 and 2x .303 firing incendiary bullets?

Seems like that would be a good mix and lighter than 4x .50 (~375lbs vs 524lbs, a 150lb gain or ~2% gross weight reduction). I would rate 2x .50 about the same as 6x .303s firing ball/AP rounds (less weight of fire, ~2.15lb/sec vs ~3lb/sec, but more penetration/structural damage), with the 2x 0.303s providing the same incendiary effect as a Hurricane (that was missing on US aircraft).
 
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H_K said:
I would rate 2x .50 about the same as 6x .303s firing ball/AP rounds when it comes to weight of fire and penetration/structural damage,
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one .50 cal bullet weighed 48.6 grams so 10 per second (600rpm) =486 grams per second for one gun
AP/Ball of the .303 was 11.27 grams so 20 per second (1200rpm =225.4 grams per second for one gun, 450 grams per second for two guns.

Incendiary and tracer is a bit lighter. Yes the .50 has better penetration/structural damage, but 50% better? Please remember that the 1940 .50 cal ammo was only about 60fps faster than the .303 ammo. It had 82% of the energy of the .50 cal M2 rounds used in 1941/42 and later.
 
Shortround6 said:
Yes the .50 has better penetration/structural damage, but 50% better?
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Well the gap is half that actually.

6x .303s has 38% more weight-of-fire than 2x .50s (the latter firing at 600 rpm). But the 0.50 has better ballistics, so retains energy better, with the difference in velocity-squared being ~10% at 150 yds. So the net gap should be only ~25%.
 
I thought that the .50 cal until 1940 was 450rpm synchronized and 600rpm unsynchronized?
 
H_K said:
I thought that the .50 cal until 1940 was 450rpm synchronized and 600rpm unsynchronized?
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When pulling G the guns on one side slowed down, the ones on the other sped up, until they all jammed, in reality they topped out around 500-550.
 
"Does anyone know the altitudes for the raids during the BoB? I've read accounts of Ju-88s flying at tree top level. Its hard to imagine He-111s flying above 10,000ft and hitting a target as small an airfield or radar station with accuracy."

For the bombers, typically 4,000 - 5,000m, though this increased by about 1,000m in the face of British fighter opposition and a large increase in the number of barrels protecting London after that became the target (from 92 to 200 in the three days after 7 September).

For the huge assault on London today, 80 years ago, the bombers were ordered to fly slightly higher for the first time, probably to enable a faster withdrawal.

"...between 5,000 and 6,500 metres. By using vertical separation, the length of formations is to be kept down as much as possible. The return flight shall be carried out in a shallow dive, so that the English coast is passed at about 4,000 metres altitude."

Escort formations would fly both at a similar level to the bombers and much higher, as evidenced in British intelligence reports.

On 15th September Nos 72 and 92 Squadrons had managed to make 26,000 feet when they intercepted elements of JG 53, giving them a vital 3,000 feet advantage. The only thing not typical today was the height that those two Spitfire squadrons had reached. Because Park and de Broke had anticipated that London was the target today they had been scrambled early to their patrol line.

Some of the most effective raids were carried out at lower or really low level. The bomb carrying Bf 109s and Bf 110s of Epgr. 210 specialised in such attacks and other units also operated at low level. Several airfields were attacked by low flying Do 17s in August 1940.

At this time the fighters rarely flew as high as 30,000 feet. I notice that the linked report in post #123 is from 30 November, some time after the Battle of Britain period.
 
stona said:
I notice that the linked report in post #123 is from 30 November, some time after the Battle of Britain period.
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There are plenty of combat reports from the BoB of fighting over 20,000ft, be as picky as you want the F4F isn't going to cut it.

Admiral Beez said:
Indeed. To each their role. Try replacing the Wildcats at Midway with June 1942's non-folding, short-ranged and weak-kneed Seafire Mk.IIc.
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Absolutely, use ground based fighters on the ground, carrier based fighters on carriers, it's not rocket science.
 
PAT303 said:
Absolutely, use ground based fighters on the ground, carrier based fighters on carriers, it's not rocket science.
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These discussions always seem to ignore the obvious development during the war. From 1000BHP in 1940 to 2000BHP plus in 1944 is 200BHP per year by leaps and increments, very easy to be left behind. A carrier going from UK to the far east for a tour would always return with obsolete aircraft.
 
PAT303 said:
In service they were between 450 and 550 rpm until the M2 was adopted.
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That is why I keep putting in "at best" in my posts
the .303 Browning was supposed to fire at 1200rpm. if a few fired at 1100rpm it doesn't seem to have attracted much notice.
the cowl guns on the Tomahawks (and P-39s the British got) were noted for rarely exceeding 500rpm. I am not sure about the wing guns, your numbers could be correct even for the wing guns, long belts were noted as slowing the guns down (even without "G" forces). But in 1940/early 41 the only wing .50s the British got were in the Martlets and Buffaloes.
The P-40D/E doesn't show up until the middle or fall of 1941 and those should have had M2 guns. Doesn't mean they performed at book performance either to start with.

The Hispano may have actually fired faster than the .50 cal Browning in 1940, while it fired (drums and jams).
But helps explain why the British were not jumping through hoops to either get more .50 cal guns or try to field small numbers of planes armed with them.
 
PAT303 said:
There are plenty of combat reports from the BoB of fighting over 20,000ft, be as picky as you want the F4F isn't going to cut it.
.
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I've been writing a concise day by day account of the Battle elsewhere since July and this is simply not the case. I don't even know how many combat reports, squadron diary entries, ORBs, intelligence reports, etc. I have read over the last two months. It's one of the few upsides of having your livelihood removed by the corona-bollocks. Yes, escorts were sometimes engaged at such altitudes, particularly in the current period, but the bomber formations, which were the primary targets did not usually arrive at such altitudes.
On 7th September, when the bombers were stacked up to 6,500 m (near enough 21,000 feet) this increased altitude was noticed and remarked upon. The Luftwaffe did this to reduce the length of the formations, this reason was explicitly stated in Goering's orders for the day.

"By using vertical separation, the length of formations is to be kept down as much as possible."

The increase in altitude was pertinent because this very morning, before leaving for a conference at Bentley Priory, Park had sent a directive to his controllers. On one occasion the previous day just seven of the eighteen squadrons dispatched had made successful interceptions. It had come to his notice that some Sector controllers were ordering their squadrons to altitudes a couple of thousand feet above that ordered by their Group controllers. In fear of being 'bounced' the squadron leaders were also adding a few thousand feet. As a result, the intercepting fighters were running directly into the escorting fighters, provoking exactly the fighter v fighter combat that Park was keen to avoid. The real targets, the bombers, were getting through, unmolested, below and only being intercepted after they had bombed, which was unacceptable. Just as Park was ordering his controllers to ensure that their fighters were to be vectored to raids at an altitude where they could intercept the bombers, some of the bombers started to fly slightly higher.

On 1 October Kesselring and Sperrle withdrew all the Luftwaffe's twin engine medium bombers from daylight action, unless they could operate with the protection of cloud, and hence, by definition, not in large formations. It was from this period that much smaller formations of Bf 109s and Bf 110s raided at much, much higher altitudes. The German aircraft commonly arrived as high as 30,000 feet. You may have seen October referred to as 'Messerschmitt month' in some British sources and this is why. A Combat Report from late November has nothing to do with the tactics used by the Luftwaffe in July, August and September and that is not being 'picky'.
 
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