Worst aircraft of WW2? (1 Viewer)

Dear Fellow WW II Av-Fans:

The PIPE Here, with my very FIRST post at WW2aircraft.net...!!!

For a long, LONG time, I've been fascinated by what I started out calling "Stuck-Ugly" (it got "stuck" with an "ugly" appearance), and then came up with a somewhat more appropriate sobriquet...which I believe im Deutsch translates as "Grauerlicher-Greif"...or GRUESOME GRIFFIN...

...none other than the "welded-engine" bomber, the Heinkel He 177, WAS the worst aircraft of WW 2 !

Like "acesman" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/worst-aircraft-ww2-continued-626-8.html#post49516 , "V-1710" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/worst-aircraft-ww2-continued-626-24.html#post117412 , and maybe "DerAdlerIstGelandet" at http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/worst-aircraft-ww2-continued-626-24.html#post117578 have more-or-less said already...

...that Gruesome Griffin was just about the worst aircraft in service during the war...from its fire-prone, "welded-together" DB 606 and 610 engines (as Fat Hermann [Goering] derisively put it on at least two occasions), all-too-light elevator controls (as verified by good ol' Eric Brown of the British Royal Navy, one of the greatest test pilots of all time)...an almost TOTAL lack of servicability due to lack of support from not only Heinkel, but the Luftwaffe's mechanic training program, lack of trained pilots, etc, etc...and add to that the oft-noted diving attack requirement from the RLM, which Ernst Heinkel disagreed with from the beginning, and which WAS finally rescinded by Goering in September 1942...that whole He 177 program for a "heavy bomber", the ONLY one that the Luftwaffe was to ever have, was always a disaster in continuous "happening", AND waiting to happen, ALL at the same time...!!!

Just about the single BEST book I've YET read about the Gruesome Griffin, her high-altitude stablemate the He 274, the never-built, PAPER ONLY design known as the He 277, and the...FOR REAL..."most-built" (but NOT by much) truly "four engined" version of the whole Griffin program, the He 177B (for which FOUR prototypes were built, and three of those FLEW in test flights...NO KIDDING) is the book by Manfred Griehl and Joachim Dressel on the He 177 and her "relatives"...!!!

The Griehl/Dressel book totally SHOOTS DOWN the "cover story" urban legend of the He 277 actually being built (those WERE really He 177Bs!!!) and provides the evidence for this...from dates when the "He 277" design's work would have been "approved", versus actual Heinkel documents shown in the book that read "He 177B-5" dated as late as February 1944...and the three-view G.A. drawing in the Griehl-Dressel book of the "He 177B-5" is basically a DEAD RINGER for the actually built, AND flown, He 177 V101 "truly" four engined prototype example.

The entries at Wikipedia for both the 177 AND 277 (respective links there at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_177 AND http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_277 ) reflect the updated knowledge found (possibly for the very first time) in the Griehl-Dressel volume, which has a newer publishing year (1998 ) than ANY other book on the He 177 "family" of aircraft, and these two authors HAVE published a goodly number of other WW II German aircraft book titles...so my feeling is that what we were all reading, about the "He 177B cover designation" for the He 277 is almost entirely an "urban legend", and from the text and photos in the book (especially of the factory drawings' general arrangements) that a REAL quartet of He 177B prototypes WERE built, with three of them flying...but the US 15th Air Force got to them before Herr Heinkel could do anything more about it, destroying the third and fourth He 177B prototypes in Vienna-area bombing in very early 1944, with the only photographic image remaining of ANY of the four engined He 177s bieng that nose-on, "lonely" looking one of the He 177 V101, sitting on a foggy German airfield all by itself.

Thanks to the "Wings of the Luftwaffe" book by Eric Brown, I found out about the Gruesome One's flying habits...and the Griehl/Dressel book FINALLY pulling the wool from in front of our eyes concerning the He 177B being a real plane (the He 277 REMAINED a paper-ONLY entity!)...I found out a lot more, than I've ever known before on the Gruesome One, and on an "urban legend" that grew up in many, MANY WW II aviation history books surrounding the entire effort to TRY getting a real four engined heavy bomber for the Luftwaffe, and NOT something with "welded-together" engines...!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

I don't think the He 177 can be considered the worst. Overall it was a very capable design and would have proven a very advanced and great heavy bomber. It had great performance for an aircraft of its type and it could carry a heavy bomb load as well as good defensive armament.

Its problems were in its coupled engines. This was a very big mistake and caused problems such as catching fire and so forth. The reason the engines were coupled was because of a design spec that the aircraft had to be capable of dive bombing.

This problem however was fixed later on, and the He 177 did serve just fine once it was corrected. Therefore I do not believe the He 177 can even be a contender. Sure it had teething problems (big teething problems as a matter of fact) but all aircraft have them as well.

IMHO one can argue that He 177 was one of the worst a/c, not as a plane but as from POV of war economy, over 1000 was produced with enourmous cost in resources and in training, the plane being very complicated when compared the older German bombers. So much alternative production was lost, some units spent long time in training when they were needed desperately at fronts. And the achievements of the units flying the type were rather limited. B-29 also had many problems and was also a very costly program but in the end it produced results otherwise unachiavable. But soon after the problems of He 177 were mostly solved and while factories were churning out them the change in strategic situation became so obvious that even German High Command noticed that and many He 177s went straight from factory to different dispersal fields all over Germany. Not only plane which suffered that destiny but the timing was critical to Germany.

But as I wrote, the plane itself was better than its popular reputation in Anglo-American world.

Juha said:

IMHO one can argue that He 177 was one of the worst a/c, not as a plane but as from POV of war economy, over 1000 was produced with enourmous cost in resources and in training, the plane being very complicated when compared the older German bombers. So much alternative production was lost, some units spent long time in training when they were needed desperately at fronts. And the achievements of the units flying the type were rather limited. B-29 also had many problems and was also a very costly program but in the end it produced results otherwise unachiavable. But soon after the problems of He 177 were mostly solved and while factories were churning out them the change in strategic situation became so obvious that even German High Command noticed that and many He 177s went straight from factory to different dispersal fields all over Germany. Not only plane which suffered that destiny but the timing was critical to Germany.

But as I wrote, the plane itself was better than its popular reputation in Anglo-American world.

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I certainly agree with you there. From and economic and resources stand point, I think it was a waste. Aircraft wise though, I think the wrap that it gets is a myth. The bugs were eventually worked out of her.

Did we list the NATTER already ?


I would NOT have voluntarily got in the cockpit of one of these things if it was the last thing I did - which it probably would be in truth.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I certainly agree with you there. From and economic and resources stand point, I think it was a waste. Aircraft wise though, I think the wrap that it gets is a myth. The bugs were eventually worked out of her.

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Right and then it became more reliable than the other German bombers. But the lack of fuel and emphasis on fighters finished it off.
Just imagine that the Americans had cancelled the expensive and troublesome B-29 project at the end of 1944. It would now have been regarded as the similar He 177.

Then again, at least they didn't use the B-29 on such a massive scale before the bugs were ironed out as they did with the He 177 (supplying the 6th Armee at Stalingrad?).




Cromwell, I disagree on the Natter. By 1945 the Natter was just about the best the Germans had in the pipeline. They no longer had the possibility to train pilots and didn't have the fuel for the aircraft. Now here's an incredibly simply semi-guided heavily armoured rocket fighter which required no trained pilots. Flying faster than any fighter it could and would come in range of enemy bombers, release a volley of very powerful Föhn of R4M rockets (like succesfully used on the Me 262 in the last weeks) which would have meant a certain success.
They were very easy to build and with the engines and pilot recuperated could be build in great numbers, as long as the methanol supply kept up. An ideal stopgap until the arrival of the Enzian and later the Wasserfall.

Or can you come up with better ideas for 1945?

Kris

Hello Civettone
IIRC the only time when Natter was lauched manned the pilot died during the lauch, broken neck IIRC, so no guidance after that.

Juha

Civettone said:

By 1945 the Natter was just about the best the Germans had in the pipeline.
They no longer had the possibility to train pilots and didn't have the fuel for the aircraft.

Kris

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I believe the need to put "basically trained" pilots in the air as quickly as possible is what prompted the "Volksjager" competition, and to that end, I understand the Heinkel He162 met this need (not to say the Natter didn't also address that need).



...and if any of that is incorrect, please feel free to "educate" me.


Elvis

Hello Elvis
Eric Brown thought/thinks that He 162 definitely was not a plane for a beginner.

Juha

The He-162 was definitely not a plane for a beginner as applying too much rudder too quickly at high speed would see the a/c come apart. The effectiveness responsiveness of the He-162's rudder was extreme.

That having been said the He-162 was the most exciting a/c Eric Brown flew, it was extremely aerobatic, possessing great turn performance roll rate, and Brown enjoyed flying it so much that he used to fly it a lot for fun after the war.

...stupid history channel...

Thanks for your input guys. I'll try to remember that one in the future.


Elvis

Juha said:

Hello Elvis
Eric Brown thought/thinks that He 162 definitely was not a plane for a beginner.

Juha

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The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

Cromwell said:

The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

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There were issues in the bonding process used on this aircraft, but if done correctly wood/ metal bonding is actually stronger than riveting in many cases.

Cromwell said:

The combined wood-metal structure used in the wings used to peel apart if over stressed

Maybe this was due to slave labour sabotage, or poor glue / attachment technology or just simply bad design I am not sure.

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The glue intended for the 162 and the Ta-154 was no longer available after the Tego (sp?) works was bombed. Or was Tego the bonding glue? I don't remember. The substitute glue they used ate away at the wood causing both a/c to sometimes break up in flight.

Von Frag said:

The glue intended for the 162 and the Ta-154 was no longer available after the Tego (sp?) works was bombed. Or was Tego the bonding glue? I don't remember. The substitute glue they used ate away at the wood causing both a/c to sometimes break up in flight.

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I remember reading something like that as well.

FLYBOYJ said:

I remember reading something like that as well.

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Me 3.
I understand it was a high acidity level in the glues they were using later in the war.
Bonded like steel but evenutally would eat away at the wood, causing failure of the bond...or rather, the pieces that were bonded together.


Elvis

Juha said:

Hello Civettone
IIRC the only time when Natter was lauched manned the pilot died during the lauch, broken neck IIRC, so no guidance after that.

Juha

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Sure but that was an accident which had nothing to do with the design or concept of the aircraft/rocket. They just forgot to securely close the cockpit hood. Poor pilot was probably knocked unconscious...

Elvis said:

I believe the need to put "basically trained" pilots in the air as quickly as possible is what prompted the "Volksjager" competition, and to that end, I understand the

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Right. But what the nazi's didn't understand is that there is no value in a 'basically trained pilot'. At least not when used to perform combat in such a Volksjäger design.

Not only would the Volksjäger pilot have been hunted down and shot down by slower aircraft piloted by much more experienced pilots, the He 162 design was chosen based on a lie, that is that the design was already underway while the original design (P.1073 IIRC) was quite different from the later He 162. It seems to me that the original winner of the competition, the Blohm Voss P.211 project would have made a better aircraft for novice pilots. Best choice would have been the Lippisch P.20 though...

Kris

Civettone said:

...the He 162 design was chosen based on a lie, that is that the design was already underway while the original design (P.1073 IIRC) was quite different from the later He 162. It seems to me that the original winner of the competition, the Blohm Voss P.211 project would have made a better aircraft for novice pilots. Best choice would have been the Lippisch P.20 though...

Kris

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The He162 won the competition in the long-run because it required fewer man-hours for construction and it used the Bf109 main-gear.

GrauGeist said:

The He162 won the competition in the long-run because it required fewer man-hours for construction and it used the Bf109 main-gear.

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If you've seen the B&V P.211 plans you'll realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build a fighter with even less manhours! The simplicity of that design is simply staggering!! That's why initially it won the competition. Then Heinkel started lobbying ...

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bv211-1.gif

Kris

Civettone said:

If you've seen the B&V P.211 plans you'll realize that it is IMPOSSIBLE to build a fighter with even less manhours! The simplicity of that design is simply staggering!! That's why initially it won the competition. Then Heinkel started lobbying ...

http://www.luft46.com/bv/bv211-1.gif

Kris

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Gott in Himmel! - that is one simple little plane! If it'd been any simpler, they could've just strapped the pilot to the engine, and have him hold and fire a sub-machinegun.

Venganza