It is a Gustav. The bulges over the cowlings give it a way. It is Hartmann's.
Worst aircraft of WW2?
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Aha ! Die Beule
That must be Erich Hartmann of course - hence the Heart emblem - I am being slow witted
I think he scored all his victories in the Bf 109 (you may know more about that). He also reminds me of Rudel - gloriously unrepentent !
BTW Adler is a name for Spotting Post or something like that is it not ?
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Hartmann was far from unrepentant totally unlike Rudel.
Agreed. Hartmann was nothing like Rudel. Rudel was a believer and a Nazi through and through, Hartmann was not. To claim that Hartmann was is false and defamation in my opinion.
I feel I must defend myself.
I did not say that Hartmann was an ardent national socialist - you are making an assumption there if I might say so.
BUT when the Soviets imprisoned him he never capitulated to their demands - and put his life on the line several times
In other words, he did not accept their accusations of being a war criminal in the context of his exploits as a fighter pilot.
Actually your accusation is based on a false premise and is potentially a defamation of me - so please ease off, especially as I have been nothing but friendly to you at all points so far (take a look).
I was not commenting on their relationship to the Nazi party in either case. Also, I am not a supporter of national socialism or any political philosophy as I find them all lacking - I rely on the democratic process to take the edge off extremists at least for the present time.
I was pointing out that both of them did not bend to the idea that by fulfilling their duties as combat pilots they were de facto war criminals in that *specific* context.
Note. The Americans were quite willing to seek the counsel of Rudel through his books and in person (please check) I believe.
Look at the development of the A10 - Reading Rudel's book was de rigeur for those involved in the project.
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As in the film
Which is rather a good flick actually and I have it on DVD, which is unusual for me.
Ways in which Hartmann and Rudel were similar
1. Both German Luftwaffe Pilots during WW2
2. Extraordinary Ability - far exceeding almost anything before or since
3. Scored most Kills on Eastern Front (against Russians mostly)
4. Specialised in using one type of aircraft - 109 for Hartmann 87 for Rudel
5. Both persisted with a type of plane that was becoming somewhat obsolete towards end WW2 i.e. 109 and 87 as above
6. Both survived WW2 and died natural deaths
7. Both involved in military aviation post WW2 in various capacities
8. Both received Iron Cross with leaves, swords, diamonds etc
Cromwell
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I understand what you're saying Cromwell and you are correct in those simularities. But philosophically, both were opposites. Hartmann embraced the new Liftwaffe and political atmosphere while Rudel would not let go of National Socialism. Hartmann was a pure apolitical pilot while Rudel let his political opinions guide him after the war.
Of course he did not, nore should he have. He was not a War Criminal, he was a fighter pilot who did his job. To accuse him of being a war criminal was wrong in the first place.
1. Woh chill out man! I am not accusing of you of that. I am saying that in general doing such things is defamation. I am not trying to say you were doing so...
2. I do have a question however. How does doing your job as a figher pilot make you a de facto war criminal? A soldier doing his duty does not make him a war criminal...
Ding, Ding, Ding...
Tell him what he won Johnny!
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Thank you ! Phew I am glad someone understands me at last !
BTW you are both Moderators - is my Signature OK ?
too big / small ? its hard to get a small Cromwell Pic online
2. I do have a question however. How does doing your job as a fighter pilot make you a de facto war criminal? A soldier doing his duty does not make him a war criminal... .... < Schniptz ! >
OK, try again
This IS MY Point ! I am trying very hard to AGREE with you.
I am totally uncomfortable with the concept of 'war criminals' as it is nearly always applied by the Victors on the Vanquished
Winners write history, not losers
Politically Nuremberg had to happen - to appease the Russians if nothing else
BUT philosophically I have problems with Executing so-called War Criminals, it is also bad for Military Intelligence because you are sending a LOT of Know-How to the Grave
Its not very 'smart'
NOTE: Getting them to do Penance and help clear up the mess, well that is another matter
OK, try again
This IS MY Point ! I am trying very hard to AGREE with you.
I am totally uncomfortable with the concept of 'war criminals' as it is nearly always applied by the Victors on the Vanquished
Winners write history, not losers
Politically Nuremberg had to happen - to appease the Russians if nothing else
BUT philosophically I have problems with Executing so-called War Criminals, it is also bad for Military Intelligence because you are sending a LOT of Know-How to the Grave
Its not very 'smart'
NOTE: Getting them to do Penance and help clear up the mess, well that is another matter
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BTW It is the Tragedy of the 20C that the English and the Germans ended up fighting each other. The First World War was a HUGE Mess-Up and set the pace for the next 60-70 years until the wall finally came down late 80s
It was much more fun when we were fighting the French together ! What a TEAM !
Think if the Brits and Jerries had joined forces instead ?
We would have ruled the world and crushed the opposition into a million pieces
(Manic World Domination Laughter
)
NOTE: Mr Moderator - is my Signature Graphic OK with you ?
It was much more fun when we were fighting the French together ! What a TEAM !
Think if the Brits and Jerries had joined forces instead ?
We would have ruled the world and crushed the opposition into a million pieces
(Manic World Domination Laughter
)NOTE: Mr Moderator - is my Signature Graphic OK with you ?
I think it is fine. If it were mine, I would make it a tad bit smaller, but not much.
I state again however that a fighter pilot who does his job of shooting down enemy aircraft or straifing enemy troops is doing his job. He is not a war criminal. That is what fighter pilots do.
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beaupower32
Tech Sergeant
AND I state again that I AGREE with YOU !
I am not arguing with you - I am trying very hard to show that I agree with you
Oh boy
Clay_Allison
Staff Sergeant
- 1,154
- Dec 24, 2008
OK, Good stuff thanks
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