WW2 Experimental, Prototype or Limited Producion planes not Quantity produced

[wuzak]

No redesign necessary. If the Mosquito is to be manufactured in Canada then it should be designed for aluminum construction from the beginning.

So, design two Mosquitos? One that is designed in wood to be built in the UK, and another (later) version in Aluminium to be built in Canada?

Remembering that Canadian production was decided upon when it was clear that the Mosquito was a winner, and not as part of the initial production scheme.

 

[Siegfried]

An aluminium Mossie would have been heavier .

I think thats thats an assertion. Though some are fond of waxing lyrical regarding the Mosquitos construction being brilliant, light etc I see no proof it was lighter. It may just be the DeHaviland marketing department and who are they to make this claim as their knowledge of equivalent aluminium structures was apparently quite poor (eg Commet fatique crashes). It probably was smoother, or rather easy to produce and maintain a smooth surface with compound curves however.

Building aircraft with smooth surfaces could be quite difficult without specialised equipment (eg presses). The efforts of caulking and sealing of gaps and surface waxing was required which was generally considered too much trouble for anything but specialised aircraft (recons). It may be that the P-51 Mustang wings may have benefitted from wooden consturction with a doped fabric cover.

Arado experiemented with several very interesting techniques to improve smootheness, weight and internal wing volume as part of their Arado 234 jet program. They built experimental wing sections (there are photographs around) in which the complete wing is cast in magenesium alloy.
The technique was apparently quite effective but avoided as being too radical.

The other technique, which was the one used in production aircraft, was to rivet the wing at lines of equal curvature rather than equal chord (ie along sspar and string lines), the calculations were run through an early computer. These kinds of techniques were required for latter transonic aircraft so that unequal shockwave development on opposit wings would not cause handling issues.

 

[wuzak]

It may just be the DeHaviland marketing department and who are they to make this claim as their knowledge of equivalent aluminium structures was apparently quite poor (eg Commet fatique crashes).

Perhaps the phenomena of fatigue was little understood at the time, and that de Havilland brought it into sharp focus.

Also note that the Comet was the first jet airliner and one of the first pressurised airliners.

 

[davebender]

Design one Mosquito and build them all in Canada. That way you take advantage of Canadian aluminum and U.S. built Merlin engines.

 

[Shortround6]

Let me see if I have this right.

A. Move DeHaviland design team to Canada.
B. Design "NEW" airplane that looks like a Mosquito and uses most of the aerodynamics but uses an entirely new structure, only keeping a few bits and pieces like instrument panel and landing gear.
C. Find something else for British DeHaviland workers (and subcontractors) to do, like build bunk beds for arriving USAAF aircrew.
D. Build much large Canadian factory (or more than one factory) to build required number of Mosquitoes, without British production.
E. train thousands if not tens of thousands of Canadian workers to build all metal aircraft.

Is that about right?

No slur intended about Canadian workers. US factories took quite number of months to train US workers (including many women) to do aircraft work.
US Merlins were already going into both Canadian and British built Mosquitoes, They were not laying about in crates looking for homes.

 

[pbfoot]

moving all DeHavilland to Canada sounds alittle far fetched but please recall that from 45 on Canada did become a major player in aircraft design and manufacture starting with Chipmunk, Beaver Otter Canadair Jetliner and CF100, Northstar the DC4 or 6 Hyrbrid with Merlins, the Jetliner was dropped as to pick up the manufacture of Sabres for MAP

 

[davebender]

More far fetched then 1940 Britain investing heavily in U.S. firms like Packard and North American Aviation?

If Britain is going to build or expand munition industries in other nations then members of the Commonwealth should receive preference. Isn't that what the Imperial Preference system was all about?

 

[Shortround6]

Uh, Mr. Bender, you do understand the difference between investing in a firm and ordering products from a firm don't you?

And the importance of timely delivery?

Placing orders with exiting companies, even if they have to greatly expand, will usually result in faster deliveries than creating new companies from scratch.

The British had also placed large contracts for all sorts of war material with US companies in WW I, so this is nothing new. The British actually bought thousands of rifles from the Japanese in WW I (used for training) so "Imperial Preference" was just that. A preference, not a hard and fast rule to be followed in the face of logic.

 

[Shortround6]

moving all DeHavilland to Canada sounds alittle far fetched but please recall that from 45 on Canada did become a major player in aircraft design and manufacture starting with Chipmunk, Beaver Otter Canadair Jetliner and CF100, Northstar the DC4 or 6 Hyrbrid with Merlins, the Jetliner was dropped as to pick up the manufacture of Sabres for MAP

The Canadians have done a great job of developing their aircraft industry but it had start somewhere and learn to walk before it could run. Early Canadian production of Blenhiems/Bolenbrokes depended on US supplies, not in the sense of raw materials or actual airframe parts but on things like piping, pipe connections, instruments, certain stock parts like tubing or extrusions, fasteners. As production picked up and More aircraft types were added to the Canadian production the Canadian ability to handle all the little subcontracting also picked up.

Raw Aluminium ingots do not turn themselves into airplanes. Rolling mills and extrusion plants are needed to turn the "raw" aluminum into sheets, tubes, bars, and T, L, U, and Z extrusions that the aircraft factory can actually use.

I repeat, the Canadians did a great job of going from were they were in 1938 in aircraft production to where they were in 1945, and have continued to do an excellent job. Expecting them to hit say, 1944 levels of production in 1942, in a thread "what if" is just asking too much

 

[davebender]

During WWII there was little difference. Most aircraft and tanks were manufactured in new / newly expanded factories constructed specifically for that purpose during the late 1930s and early 1940s.

 

[Shortround6]

Ah, there is a major difference.

If you invest in the firm you own a piece of it when when the contracted for product has been delivered. Should the company be resolved you own part of the machinery, or the building, or the trademark or Something.

If you simply ordered products, once the contract is fulfilled you own nothing but the specified number of items and have no further claims on the factory, it's other products or it's future production.

The British contracted with a number of American companies for aircraft but owned no share of the buildings, the machinery, the rights to any designs or even the ability to force the companies involved to accept further contracts.

The companies may have used the money to help finance their own expansion rather than pay dividends to stockholders but those were company decisions and had nothing to do with British buyers.


The American government on the other hand did pay for large numbers of new factories. Once the contracts were complete however the plants and machinery belong to the US government, not the companies that ran the plants for the government.
At the end of the war their may have been a few ( or more than A few) sweetheart deals on buildings and machinery declared surplus. In other cases the factories were shuttered only to be reopened during the Korean war.

 

[wuzak]

The American government on the other hand did pay for large numbers of new factories. Once the contracts were complete however the plants and machinery belong to the US government, not the companies that ran the plants for the government.
At the end of the war their may have been a few ( or more than A few) sweetheart deals on buildings and machinery declared surplus. In other cases the factories were shuttered only to be reopened during the Korean war.

I believe it was a similar situation in Britain with the shadow factory scheme. That is, teh government owned many of teh new factories.

 

[wuzak]

No redesign necessary. If the Mosquito is to be manufactured in Canada then it should be designed for aluminum construction from the beginning.

What aircraft design and construction capabilities did Canada have in the period 1939-1940? Remembering that the Mosquito was designed and constructed in that period and the prototype W4050 first flew in late November 1940?

Could de Havilland Canada have matched that? Somehow I doubt it.

If you think Canada's aviation industry could have been better utilised, I suggest that an aluminium Mosquito was not the best plan. However, an all-aluminium alternative could have been made. Perhaps Hawkers get the go-ahead to develop the P.1005 high speed bomber project in Canada.

The go-ahead would have been given, probably, late 1941, so a prototype could have been flying by late 1942/early 1943.

As the Sabre was a) still very troublesome at this time and b) not available in a high altitude version perhaps alterantive engines could have been arranged. I'd suggest an Allison V-3420 as being a potential replacement, either with a 2 stage supercharger or a turbocharged installation. I'd still continue with a Sabre prototype on the off-chance that they get sorted (which they did) and built in sufficient numbers.

 

[pbfoot]

What aircraft design and construction capabilities did Canada have in the period 1939-1940? Remembering that the Mosquito was designed and constructed in that period and the prototype W4050 first flew in late November 1940?

Could de Havilland Canada have matched that? Somehow I doubt it.

If you think Canada's aviation industry could have been better utilised, I suggest that an aluminium Mosquito was not the best plan. However, an all-aluminium alternative could have been made. Perhaps Hawkers get the go-ahead to develop the P.1005 high speed bomber project in Canada.

The go-ahead would have been given, probably, late 1941, so a prototype could have been flying by late 1942/early 1943.

As the Sabre was a) still very troublesome at this time and b) not available in a high altitude version perhaps alterantive engines could have been arranged. I'd suggest an Allison V-3420 as being a potential replacement, either with a 2 stage supercharger or a turbocharged installation. I'd still continue with a Sabre prototype on the off-chance that they get sorted (which they did) and built in sufficient numbers.

Had designed the basic trainers Fleet Fawn and Finch , the still working and flying Norseman most of the design work went in trainers in 39 40 , but pays to recall that of all nations on earth I can't think of any other that has been more influenced by aviation, the area in the north was a total unknown for the most part in comes the Bushpilot with no accurate maps and horrible navigation problems between true and magnetic north compounded by the seasons from floats to skis to wheels , and the fact of Canadian sucess as far as pilots in WW1 certainly helped foster its growth.
I was talking to my Dad the other day and he rhymed off that he had seen the R101. Macon , Akron , the RAF Fury demo team ,the RCAF flying Siskins and even recalled the first Balboa when the Italians flew a mass formation of Amhibs to the IIRC the worlds fair in Chicago

 

[Shortround6]

This is from the 1938 edition of "Jane's" so take it as you will. aircraft companies and types made/worked on.

Associated Aircraft ,LTD.
Two factories to be set up as part of the 'British Air Armament Program'

Canadian Car Foundry Co., LTD
License production of Grumman bi-plane fighter and order of 40 for Turkey.

Canadian Vickers.
License production of the Northrop Delta

Cub Aircraft Corporation LTD
License production of the Piper Cub.

De Havilland Aircraft of Canada, LTD
From April 1937 to March 1938 produced 4 "Dragonflies", 4 "Dragon-Rapides", 5 "Hornet Moths" and 22 Tiger Moths".

Fairchild Aircraft, LTD
Production of the Fairchild 82 and the Sekani with preparation for the production of the Bristol Blenheim. Factory space is described as 38,000sq ft with a 14,000ft addition.

Fleet Aircraft LTD
Building Fleet trainers (original design by Consolidated Aircraft) and the Fleet twin engine transport.

National Steel Car Corporation LTD.
The second largest manufacturer of railroad rolling stock in Canada, Agrees to build Westland Lysanders under license.

Noordyun Aviation LTD.
Is building the Norseman transport and has entered into an agreement with North American for the rights to manufacture and sell the BT-9 trainer in Canada.

Ottawa Car Manufacturing Co LTD
a company whose main business is the manufacture of street cars is the Canadian Agent for Armstrong Whitworth, A.V. Roe and Armstrong Siddeley Motors. The Company can do limited manufacturing and can do overhauls/reconditioning of airframes and engines.

Vancouver Aircraft Manufacturing Company.
The ex Boeing of Canada company. has a contract for 20 Blackburn Shark aircraft. This is the first aircraft work after a lapse of 5 years. Only imported part is the stainless steel main spar/s. has 75,000 sq ft of space and 130 employees.

As I have said before, you have to walk before you can run. The Canadians were aviation minded but the industry as whole, while dating back to WW I was small and building mostly older, out dated types. This did give valuable experience and was a whole lot better than starting from scratch. But it is a long way to go from building dozens of planes a year to building hundreds of planes per year. Especial much larger, more complicated planes.