WW2 Experimental, Prototype or Limited Producion planes not Quantity produced

[Siegfried]

The He 100 may have had 10% less wing area than the Me 109F2 but it also had 15% less weight. It's wing loading was not particularly high through it admitedly lacked slats. The supposed high landing and takeoff speeds were no more than latter aircraft like the Me 109G-6,P-47, Me 163 etc.

The aircraft had 90 imperial galons of fuel, compared to 87 for the Me 109F. Because of the greater aerodynamic efficiency of the He 100D1 it had somewhere between 560 to 620 miles range on internal fuel compared to about 410 miles for the Me 109F2 due to it superior aerodynamic efficiency. It was smoother, smaller, less wetted area and less frontal area. Despite that it looks like it managed a much roomier cockpit with a better view. It was a brilliant job of packaging. Guener brothers I believe.

Moreover with a 1163hp DB601M engine it managed 416-420mph compared to 370 mph for the latter Me 109F2 on the 1170 mph DB601N. (the engines were essentially the same). Since the Me 109F2 managed 392 mph on the 1350hp DB601E we can expect about the same 22mph boost in the He 100, this take the He 100 to 436-440mph.

I don't see that there would be a problem fitting the bigger DB605A. I also don't see a problem with fitting a 250kg bomb or 66 gallon drop tank.

Yes it was small and would be hard to push into really heavy armament but it would have given Spitfire XIV performance by 1942, it would have outrun the typhoon and tempest as well as the P-51. The only penalty was a weak armament and anyting with 1 20mm canon is adaquete.

There may have been a DB601 engine shortages, but that could be dealth with by sacrificing a few Me 109.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Doh, ... And, of course, the VL Pyörremyrsky.

Never heard of it before.... Great looking aircraft! Thanks, for citing it. It's too good looking to sink into obscurity. The Fin Spitfire, or of course more appropriately, the Fin Bf-109G

 

[DonL]

I don't see that there would be a problem fitting the bigger DB605A

Are yoiu sure of this Siegfried?

With all our knowledge today about the problems of the Bf 109G with the Db 605?

Many problems with the Db 605 in the Bf 109G were homemade from Messerschmidt, because there was not enough room.
Not all problems of the DB 605 came from Daimler Benz, many problems were the result for not enough cooling and the small room of the Bf 109G.
So I have realy my doubts that the DB 605 and the He 100D would be a successful duo.
I think even the DB 601 E with it's water pressure cooling and much more stuff, could be a problem for the He 100.

Look at the Westland Whirlwind and the problems betweenn the Peregrine and the Merlin engine.

 

[Shortround6]

The He 100 may have had 10% less wing area than the Me 109F2 but it also had 15% less weight.

Are we comparing apples to apples? Did the He 100D-1 have armor, bullet proof windscreen, self-sealing fuel tank?
The 15m Mg 151/15 with ammo (but not including links or ammo boxes/chutes) weighed 34kg more than the 20mm MG/FF, ammo and drum in the He 100.

It's wing loading was not particularly high through it admitedly lacked slats. The supposed high landing and takeoff speeds were no more than latter aircraft like the Me 109G-6,P-47, Me 163 etc.

Slats are not all they are cracked up to be by some people, they do help retain aileron control at low speeds though.

I am not sure there is any " supposed high landing and takeoff speeds", it either had a landing speed (with no good definition) of 93mph (according to one source) or it didn't.
While many later planes ( and even a few contemporaries) and similar or higher landing/take-off speeds, it does take bigger and/or better airfields to handle them.
perhaps of equal importance to the landing speed is the low speed handling. The late 109s had a bad reputation for low speed handling compared to the early ones. Including the Me 163 is a joke, right?

Because of the greater aerodynamic efficiency of the He 100D1 it had somewhere between 560 to 620 miles range on internal fuel compared to about 410 miles for the Me 109F2 due to it superior aerodynamic efficiency. It was smoother, smaller, less wetted area and less frontal area.

No one is disputing the lower drag of the the He 100.

Despite that it looks like it managed a much roomier cockpit with a better view.

Now that one is going to need a bit of proof. Was or was not the fuselage of the He 100 just as wide or was it narrower than the Bf 109 fuselage in the cockpit area? Was or was not the fuselage of the He 100 just as tall was it shorter than the Bf 109 fuselage in the cockpit area? A little tough to have a smaller frontal area with a larger cockpit. A sitting pilot has a larger frontal area than a V-12 aircraft engine. Straight legs and a reclined set back help but there is only so much you could do in a WW II fighter. View is also dependent on the pilots head position in the canopy, the lower amount of heavy framing in the He 100 canopy is certainly a plus though.

I don't see that there would be a problem fitting the bigger DB605A. I also don't see a problem with fitting a 250kg bomb or 66 gallon drop tank.

There may or may not be a problem fitting the DB605, or at least big problems. Looking at the 3 view drawings and pictures does leave one wondering where the 250kg bomb or 66 gallon drop tank would go. The landing gear practically meet in the middle of the plane much like a Hawker Hurricane and the radiator is immediately behind the landing gear, in about the same place as the Hawker Hurricane even if much smaller. This pretty much rules out a center line bomb/drop tank without splicing in a wider wing center section and relocating the radiator.

The only penalty was a weak armament and anyting with 1 20mm canon is adaquete.

That rather depends on both the 20mm gun in question and the intended target.

 

[jim]

He 112 V10 flew with Db 601 at 570 km/h , about the same as Bf 109E. It Had somewhat lower wing loading, 360 canopy , and elliptical wing which unfortunately was single spar as 109s. Overall looks somewhat better than 109E but considering the much increased cost i dont believe it was good enough.
He 100D with a slightly bigger wing and DB601E could be very competitve well into 1943 but Bf 109F was not that far behind Both aircraft had limited space for development but 109 was already in production. In He100D i see a more clear advantage over the BF109 than He112 had but still i am not sure it would made a desicive diference to justify a new production line. ( However, its design philosophy, sreamlighning as first priority, should be applyied to 109s evolution)
Fw 187 is the aircraft which, on paper, could re write the history. The single seat version offered really important advantages that fully justified ,in my opinion, the investment . It was a De Havilland hornet six years earlier! Even with a conventional cooling system its specifications are truly remarkable. And with development potentional. Perhaps Tank should try to save it by ,temporarily using the Jumo 211. If entered even limited service then would attract priority on Db600 series engines.
Also ,very interesting non produced planes were Hs127,and the firsts low drug ,low weight ju 88 prototypes
From Japan , i love Ki83 and J7W , from England the beautiful Hornet, from America P38K and a turboprop version(PA-48) of P51!

 

[davebender]

Dr. Tank proposed several Fw-187 variants to no avail. When Milch decided to kill an aircraft or engine program it was pretty much doomed.

 

[Siegfried]

Are yoiu sure of this Siegfried?

With all our knowledge today about the problems of the Bf 109G with the Db 605?

Many problems with the Db 605 in the Bf 109G were homemade from Messerschmidt, because there was not enough room.
Not all problems of the DB 605 came from Daimler Benz, many problems were the result for not enough cooling and the small room of the Bf 109G.
So I have realy my doubts that the DB 605 and the He 100D would be a successful duo.
I think even the DB 601 E with it's water pressure cooling and much more stuff, could be a problem for the He 100.

Look at the Westland Whirlwind and the problems betweenn the Peregrine and the Merlin engine.

All DB601 and I believe DB600 had a pressurised cooling circuit from the begining, so nothing changes between DB601A and DB601E in that regard. Furthermore Heinkel had by that time accumulated enormous experience in DB601 cooling in their work with using evaporative steam cooling and hydbrid systems that used combination evaporative and pressurised cooling. They even had an evaporative two loop oil cooler that used alcahol as the heat transfer liquid. Although they eventually abandoned this system for a variety of reasons including cost and battle damage vulnerabillity they certainly knew about how to cool a DB601 installation. Nothing says there were ever any cooling issues on the DB601 on the He 100D-1 or Me 109F2 for that matter. The key difference between DB601A and DB601E was that the latter had a larger valve overlap for resonance scavenging to provide more power. The low RPM or idling problems this causes was dealt with via a variable lenght inlet port. I would say the DB601E and DB601N (which used C3 instead of the tuned ports but achieved the same power level) were also strengthened in the crankshaft, pistons and bearkings and therefore somewhat heavier.

Packaging of water cooled engines is difficult, cooling air cooled engines is difficult allied or axis. Cooling anything in compact form is difficult. The He 100 was going to be no worse than the Me 109. Heinkel definetly was highly competant and they knew what they were doing having installed the DB601 in He 111, He 112 and several iternations of the He 100.

DB605 problems were not fatal, they were caused by a combination of a oil pressure cirucuit that caused frothing at high altitude, the German lag in spark plug development. The cost was a restriction in maximum boost down from 1.42 ata to 1.3 ata, the effects of which were mainly felt at low altitude.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Hornet almost suits in this thread, spectacular plane indeed. The Do-335 fits here well

 

[Denniss]

All DB601 and I believe DB600 had a pressurised cooling circuit from the begining, so nothing changes between DB601A and DB601E in that regard.

Do you have a source for this? AFAIR this was introduced with the DB 601E and not earlier (maybe except some racing DB 601). DB 601A/B manual does not mention a pressurized water cooling, max oil temps are ten degrees celsius lower than on the 601E as well.

 

[tomo pauk]

This is from Wikipedia, but non-sourced there, so take it with a grain of salt:

But by this time the DB 600 had finally arrived. Unlike the 211, the 600 was an all-new design that introduced a number of new features. Notably, it used a pressurized water cooling system that allowed it to use much less water inside the engine, and resulted in a smaller and lighter engine and radiator

 

[DonL]

But by this time the DB 600 had finally arrived. Unlike the 211, the 600 was an all-new design that introduced a number of new features. Notably, it used a pressurized water cooling system that allowed it to use much less water inside the engine, and resulted in a smaller and lighter engine and radiator

This is wrong!
Dennis ist absolutely correct

The first pressurized water cooling was introduced with the DB 601E.
It is mentioned correct at the german Wiki! And you can read it at:
Amazon.com: Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke (9783763761289): Helmut Schubert, Kurt Grasmann Kyrill von Gersdorff: Books
Flugmotoren and Strahltriebwerke from Kyrill von Gersdorff.

It is correct that Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Daimler Benz and Junkers experimented with racing engines and pressurized water cooling and this experience were used for the DB 601E and the Jumo211G and for the DB 605, DB 603 and Jumo 213!

 

[Denniss]

This is from Wikipedia, but non-sourced there, so take it with a grain of salt:

Thanks - I knew there was something on wiki I forgot to remove - it's gone now.

 

[Siegfried]

The exact performance of the He 100D-1 in full combat trim is a bit of a mystery, Wiki quotes at least 390mph. It think more because the He 100 was a generation ahead of the He 112 and Me 109 in technology and informed by those aircraft. The explosively formed rivet was invented for this aircraft, photographs show a streamlined well contoured aircraft of high construction values. I see no problem with it achieving the same aerodynamic efficiency as the P-51A, it would be only a little down on armament and fuel but still longer ranged than most fighters. I would not discount the power of a single MG 151/20 at all even if only accompanied by rifle calibre machine guns.

So extrapolating using worst case numbers:
Power Plant, DB601N. Me 109F2 370mph, He 100D-1 390mph Late 1940
Power Plant, DB601E. Me 109F4 394mph, He 100 variant 414mph Mid 1941
Power Plant, DB605A 1.3 ata. Me 109G1 401mph, He 100 variant 421mph Mid 1942
Power Plant, DB605A 1.42 ata. Me 109G1 411mph, He 100 variant 431mph October 43 (data based on 1.42 at boost adding 10mph to a G6)
Power Plant, DB605AM 1.7 ata Me 109G1 416mph, He 100 variant 436mph Mar 44 (data based on Me 109G14AM speed)

I used Me 109G1 not Me 109G6 since the G1 doesn't have gun bulges.

I see no major issue fitting the DB605 in place of the DB601, the 605 was specifically designed to fit in the same contours. The Me 109F4 to Me 109G conversion showed no major difficulties.

The Luftwaffe ends up with a fighter that in performance terms can handle and Mk XIV Spitifre, P-51B or P-47 in a timely fashion.

P-51 landing speed was 99 mph I believe.

The only problem I see is that once you start this programm you need to keep engineers working on it. That means Heinkel isn't spending time working on He 111, He 219, He 177. I don't think the aircraft would require much input aparts from fitting engines. The rest can stay the same.

 

[Siegfried]

This is wrong!
Dennis ist absolutely correct

The first pressurized water cooling was introduced with the DB 601E.
It is mentioned correct at the german Wiki! And you can read it at:
Amazon.com: Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke (9783763761289): Helmut Schubert, Kurt Grasmann Kyrill von Gersdorff: Books
Flugmotoren and Strahltriebwerke from Kyrill von Gersdorff.

It is correct that Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Daimler Benz and Junkers experimented with racing engines and pressurized water cooling and this experience were used for the DB 601E and the Jumo211G and for the DB 605, DB 603 and Jumo 213!

Gersforf might be wrong.

Evaporative steam cooling requires pressurisation and so as the He 100 had steam cooling prior to the DB601E then those engnes had pressurisation.
The DB601N actually when released to 1.3 ata had the same power as the DB601N but only required C3 fuel. To handle the thermal load it too
might have had pressurisation.

 

[davebender]

Aircraft specifications provide a good clue.

Me-109 was originally designed for a max level speed of 250mph.
He-100 was originally designed for a max level speed of 400+ mph.

The He-100 might not quite reach 400 mph with an 1,100 hp DB601A engine but it's obvious the airframe was designed for those speeds. So when you drop in that 1,350 hp DB601E and the He-100 exceeds 400 mph aircraft handing should improve rather then getting worse as happened with the Me-109. The VVS evaluation suggests the He-100 had an excellent rate of roll. Add these things together and the He-100 sounds like a lightweight, less expensive Fw-190D9.

 

[wuzak]

The Hornet almost suits in this thread, spectacular plane indeed.

The Hornet may have been possible earlier, had priorities been different - maybe at a slightly lower performance. Same could be said of the Vampire.

 

[davebender]

If de Havilland is determined to build aircraft in Canada they should take advantage of local resources. Build the Mosquito from Canadian aluminum and power it with Packard built Merlin engines.

 

[wuzak]

If de Havilland is determined to build aircraft in Canada they should take advantage of local resources. Build the Mosquito from Canadian aluminum and power it with Packard built Merlin engines.

Many UK built Mosquitos used Packard Merlins.

Redesigning the airframe to use aluminium may have delayed the program even more.

My understanding is that the Hornet and Vampire were both, in part, delayed by the MAP's indecision over the need for the aircraft.

 

[davebender]

No redesign necessary. If the Mosquito is to be manufactured in Canada then it should be designed for aluminum construction from the beginning.

 

[Milosh]

If de Havilland is determined to build aircraft in Canada they should take advantage of local resources. Build the Mosquito from Canadian aluminum and power it with Packard built Merlin engines.

An aluminium Mossie would have been heavier and the WHOLE a/c would have to be redesigned. No waving of the fairy godmother's wand and poof there it is.