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Yeah, Wuzak, I consider 2,200 P-40's to be a drop in the bucket compared with the rest of the US fighters produced for WWII. Plus or minus that many would have made ZERO difference to the USAAF.
And, as you said, the P-40 wasn't exactly a front-line plane anyway.
No, without the P-51, the Merlin would have been essentially a non-starter for US production of fighters.
We'd have gone all-radial or would have developed an alternative engine.
Nope, would NOT have happened without the P-51.
As a fallback in case.
Wuzak, I asked you to let it go.
Maybe there would be a move to develop a Lycoming or license-built RR, BMW or DB V-12 modification of the P-36 that resulted in license production of a foreign engine? Weren't the initial Bf-109s powered by RR engines? So once the idea of a P-36 with a liquid cooled engine is floated, the provider becomes who ever is building a possible engine, no?
Alternatively, the army would have a variety of radial development options although it might have resulted in an odd mix of a/c operational on December 7, 1941. The US army could have subjected to further development and ultimately bought more upgraded P-36s and P-43s and perhaps land based F4F-3s or P-66s by December 7th, 1941 with perhaps a strictly land-based USAAF F4U variant in the wings or instead of the P38 perhaps the USAAF might push development of the Grumman XP-50 (first flight 2/18/41).
I would expect the state of the US a/c industry would have inspired the BPC to go around to a number of manufactures asking them to produce something, anything but what they were currently building for the USAAF and the P-51B would have been born earlier or maybe USA built Hurricanes or Spitfires or lots and lots of Boulton Paul Defiants. Or best of all, the army might have obtained thousands of Bell FM-1s aerocudas.
For all its faults, I don't think the world is necessarily better off without the Allison.
Nope, would NOT have happened without the P-51.
You aren't from here and do not realize the political reality of the time. My mom and dad were FROM that time, along with most of their friends, and it would NOT have happened.
Since this is a contrived what-if, let's let it go, OK?
I second the motion.
The best engine solution was staring U.S. Army Air Corps in the face. Just need to be smart enough to recognize it.
The never much liked (in some 'camps') Allison V-1710 powered many US-built fighters, flying in all the war theaters, especially until sufficient number of the Thunderbolts and Merlin Mustangs were in service. So let's say, for the sake of discussion, that somehow people at Allison really messed up their machine, so the USAF Allies must acquire it's fighters without it. What would be the best alternatives, ie. historical engines set-ups, for the USA/USAF in order to produce/purchase it's fighters both in quality and quantity, until the P-47C and P-51B arrive to the scene.
The Lycoming engine was too small (not to the Army's eyes at the time) and as it existed was a "flat" engine, it could have been been bent into a "V" but that adds a bit more time. It was a 1234 cu un ( 20.2 L) engine, smaller than a Kestrel or Peregrine and depended on high rpm and high boost to make it's power. It used a short stroke so the RPM may not have been a big problem.
I guess it was late at night after a long and frustrating day resulting in my being a little too flip (especially in the nonsensical Aerocuda comment) with what I thought and think is a really interesting question. Even so, I appreciate your taking each comment seriously and elaborating on the prospect and consequences. I thought, and agreed after posting, that my last comment on the Allison was indeed a bit harsh.
It seemed that the primary historical benefit of the early existence of the Allison were the roughly parallel developments of the P-37, -39 -40 and the P-38. and their production in late 1941 in sufficient numbers to provide an immediate core USAAF force for use in the coming war and to supply the even earlier requirements and needs of allied air forces.
Trying to extrapolate the effect of the void existing due to the Allison's absence during a period when liquid-cooled engines seemed to be worth pursuing in a major way, I wondered whether the domestic engines that were in the shadow of the Allison might have received more developmental attention and come out of that process as better than they historically did. In other words, was the Allison analogous to the dinosaurs that prevented the emergence of higher mammalian species. Remove the dinosaurs and mammals flourish. Does, removing the Allison open the way to improving the Lycoming O-1230 or Continental I-1430, allowing them to evolve into some more suitable variant? Is the time frame just insufficient to have that happen or are their inherent deficiencies in the design of each that no amount of development would resolve. It seems you (SR6) see evidence that was the situation and they would not be suitable surrogates.
If the P-40 and other a/c are to come into existence in a scenario where no domestic liquid-cooled engine meets the required need, then is their a foreign product that might allow that to proceed in something like a historical fashion. I thought, British, German, and probably should have included the Hispano-Suiza 12Y, as well as Japanese and Russian options, no matter how unlikely.
If no foreign product is suitable, then it would seem the USAAF is limited to Radials. If only radials of sufficient power are available then to simply get to numbers equivalent to that of the number of P-40s produced in a comparable time frame, it would seem that extending both the development and the production runs of the P-35 P-36. The only other aircraft that seems comparable and roughly in accord with an early development and production (albeit engine and factory floor space limited) would be an army variant of the F4F-3A or F2A whose development would have had to be in parallel to the USN's forcing major, early expansion in the Grumman iron works Brewster's problematic industrial capability .
As intermediate stop-gaps, perhaps additional development of the P-43 to most quickly overcome the foreign performance gap, perforce accepting a delay in the P-47 and in desperation even considering an army F4U seem like later possibilities. None of the latter help our allies in the short run, so without an allison powered P-40 they are left with a number of very unsatisfactory options motivating them to consider some very (historically) unorthodox possibilities including early development of the P51B. At least that was the train of thought.
Based upon your answer it seems that lack of the Allison puts both the USAAF and allied air forces at a considerable disadvantage.
With the last sentence, I disagree: the engines from Pratt&Whitney and Wright were quite capable of providing power for world-beating fighters. USAAF preference for liquid-cooled inlines was more due to fashion (they looked more streamlined, more modern) than to aerodynamics (the zero-lift drag coefficient of almost all fighters ranged between 0.02 and 0.025, whether powered by in-lines or radials: the Spitfire and the Corsair had quite similar zero-lift drag coefficients). There were also, of course, development efforts that were not being heavily funded, like the "Hyper" project, that could have been funded more heavily, and there were liquid-cooled engines under development by Wright and P&W.
I don't believe anyone thought of that until both sides wanted to try a Merlin in the P-51. If the P-51 had not come along, I'm not sure anyone would have pursued the license agreement.
Maybe, but maybe not, too.
The USA would not have considered a foreign engine for newly-designed US fighters at the time. It wasn't in the political cards. The only reason it was acceptable for the P-51 is the plane was designed to a British request to start with. If it had come from the USAAF, there very probably would never have been a Merlin engined P-51.
Things back then weren't like they are today, and USAAF / USN planes were all-American items with not a single foreign-produced component.
Of course, we weren't alone there. You didn't see any foreign parts on Spitfires, Hurricanes, Bf 109's Fw 19's, or A6M's either, did you? The only reason the British used some US-made engines and aircraft / components was the necessity dictated by war. Otherwise, fighters were symbols of national pride. May seem strange, but that's the way is was for many centuries, not just during WWI and WWII.
The only reason the Japanese bought some capital ships between WWI and WWII from the UK is they hadn't the skills or equipment yet to build their own. By the time WWII came around, they WERE building their own, including big guns.