WWII air war myths

Rogi · Jul 25, 2012

1. Chuck Norris flew a Spitfire.

It is well known fact that Chuck flew a Hurricane.....

Ok kidding aside,

1. The Tuskegee airman never lost a bomber while they escorted them.

its a well known "myth" of WW2, they did lose bombers while on escorting duties.

2. (this is most likely the most disputed) Admiral Yamamoto called off the final wave of the Pearl Harbor attack because he felt "sorry" for the US's losses in the attack. (again down to a movie quote Tora! Tora! Tora!)

He did call it off, but it was mostly due to the fact that he was cautious, they hadn't hit their intended targets (the US carriers) and I beleive that he wanted to catch them out at sea with a ready wave to attack if the opportunity presented itself.

stona · Jul 25, 2012

Njaco said:
I can agree somewhat but when both types had prepared and were ready, for the most part Dowding did want the Hurris after the bombers and the Spits after the escorts. But you are correct that state of readiness and deployment did not always afford them that luxury.

Dowding may well have done but it was Park and his staff who bore the brunt of the battle and they did what they had to do.

Cheers

Steve

ToughOmbre · Jul 25, 2012

Rogi said:
2. (this is most likely the most disputed) Admiral Yamamoto called off the final wave of the Pearl Harbor attack because he felt "sorry" for the US's losses in the attack. (again down to a movie quote Tora! Tora! Tora!)

He did call it off, but it was mostly due to the fact that he was cautious, they hadn't hit their intended targets (the US carriers) and I beleive that he wanted to catch them out at sea with a ready wave to attack if the opportunity presented itself.

It was Nagumo, not Yamamoto, that decided not to employ a third wave against Pearl. Since he did not know where the American Carriers were, he thought it prudent to err to the side of caution and bring his carriers home intact.

Steve

ToughOmbre · Jul 25, 2012

A4K said:
Old ones that persist in various books and opinions:

1. Britain was doomed until the US entered the war.
2. Pearl Harbour was a complete surprise attack.
3. The Mustang was nothing till fitted with a Merlin engine.
4. The A-bomb won the war
5. 'German' means 'Nazi'

The attack on Pearl WAS a complete surprise. The myth relating to Pearl Harbor is that FDR found out before hand (God knows how he could have done that) and "let" the Japanese attack us. The conspiracy theorists like to say that we broke their code and listened in on the Japanese plans for the attack.

Did the US know we were on a collision course with Japan and would probably go to war eventually? Yes. Did we break their diplomatic code? Yes. Did we miss-interpret the radar sightings and the Ward's report of sinking a sub in the restricted zone? Yes again.

Complete surprise? IMHO, yes.

Steve

boeing299 · Jul 25, 2012

FLYBOYJ said:
30% of what Martin Cadin wrote......

I'm curious about how to interpret that. I've always been a Martin Caiden fan, but would like to hear someone elses opinion.

Thorlifter · Jul 25, 2012

Another one.....that the B-17 and P-51 "single handed" won the ETO. A major role, yes. Single handed, uh, no.

FLYBOYJ · Jul 25, 2012

boeing299 said:
I'm curious about how to interpret that. I've always been a Martin Caiden fan, but would like to hear someone elses opinion.

"The Forked Tailed Devil," his B-40 story and "F-38s" in Korea at the start of the Korean War, all false - for example

A4K · Jul 25, 2012

ToughOmbre said:
. The conspiracy theorists like to say that we broke their code and listened in on the Japanese plans for the attack.
Complete surprise? IMHO, yes. Steve

I disagree but it dosen't matter. The British had given a version of 'the bomb' (the machine that could crack the Enigma codes) to the US, as the Japanese were using a version of Enigma aswell.

Evan

Rogi · Jul 25, 2012

ToughOmbre said:
The attack on Pearl WAS a complete surprise. The myth relating to Pearl Harbor is that FDR found out before hand (God knows how he could have done that) and "let" the Japanese attack us. The conspiracy theorists like to say that we broke their code and listened in on the Japanese plans for the attack.

Did the US know we were on a collision course with Japan and would probably go to war eventually? Yes. Did we break their diplomatic code? Yes. Did we miss-interpret the radar sightings and the Ward's report of sinking a sub in the restricted zone? Yes again.

Complete surprise? IMHO, yes.

Steve

There are just too many "Complete" Suprises for it to be a coincidence. Plus the whole fact that the nation didn't want to go to war in the first place, it needed something to push it into conflict. It was known as "Europes" war, so why should they of butted into it?

They had many warnings leading up to the conflict, if they had acted for example and declared War on Japan before the event, no one would of been as receptive to a full blown war, the US barely entered WW1, entering in 1917 (they declared war in 1914, but thats like Montenegro declaring war on Japan, it doesn't mean anything unless you commit your troops and the US didn't commit any till 17)? When the conflict was nearly over. Its like coming into the World cup in the last minute and scoring in the final, after your beating your opponent by 6-1, ya you did your part but it wasn't all that much of a impact to the final outcome.

We could theorize to why they wouldn't want to be involved in the conflict, but entering the conflict would of meant more financial gain for the country than staying neutral and letting it ride out the war.

oldcrowcv63 · Jul 25, 2012

timmy said:
The P40 was a terrible fighter

Terrible seems a really harsh judgement suggesting it had no redeeming value. It apparently proved very early on to be an awe-fully good fighter bomber and ground support aircraft. With decent tactics it was able to come back a bit from a horrible first inning as an air to air fighter. For all its shortcomings, it soldiered on. Could be an overstatement but my impression is that by the time the PI campaign ended in spring 42 the P-40 had accounted for about as many IJN ships sunk or damaged as the USN SBD. Is my soft-spot for the venerable P-40 showing or that just the one on the top of my head?

FLYBOYJ · Jul 25, 2012

A4K said:
I disagree but it dosen't matter. The British had given a version of 'the bomb' (the machine that could crack the Enigma codes) to the US, as the Japanese were using a version of Enigma aswell.

Evan

Rogi said:
There are just too many "Complete" Suprises for it to be a coincidence. Plus the whole fact that the nation didn't want to go to war in the first place, it needed something to push it into conflict. It was known as "Europes" war, so why should they of butted into it?

They had many warnings leading up to the conflict, if they had acted for example and declared War on Japan before the event, no one would of been as receptive to a full blown war, the US barely entered WW1, entering in 1917? When the conflict was nearly over. Its like coming into the World cup in the last minute and scoring in the final, after your beating your opponent by 6-1, ya you did your part but it wasn't all that much of a impact to the final outcome.

We could theorize to why they wouldn't want to be involved in the conflict, but entering the conflict would of meant more financial gain for the country than staying neutral and letting it ride out the war.

The only codes the US broke prior to Pearl Harbor were Japanese Diplomatic codes. My ex's grandfather was a cryptographer stationed in the PI at the start of the war and wrote about this in great detail

tyrodtom · Jul 25, 2012

Rogi said:
1. Chuck Norris flew a Spitfire.

It is well known fact that Chuck flew a Hurricane.....

Ok kidding aside,

1. The Tuskegee airman never lost a bomber while they escorted them.

its a well known "myth" of WW2, they did lose bombers while on escorting duties.

2. (this is most likely the most disputed) Admiral Yamamoto called off the final wave of the Pearl Harbor attack because he felt "sorry" for the US's losses in the attack. (again down to a movie quote Tora! Tora! Tora!)

He did call it off, but it was mostly due to the fact that he was cautious, they hadn't hit their intended targets (the US carriers) and I beleive that he wanted to catch them out at sea with a ready wave to attack if the opportunity presented itself.

Though Yamamoto planned the Pearl Harbor attack, he was the Combined Fleet CiC, not the on scene commander, that was Vice Admiral Nagumo, and a 3 strike was never in the origional plan to call off. Some of the commanders in the first strikes pushed for a 3 rd strike, after the successes of the first 2 waves. But Nagumo knew by the time a 3rd strike was launced and returned, it would be well after dark. With other missions to perform while sailing back to Japan, he didn't want to lose more of his aircraft to night time carrier landings.

A4K · Jul 25, 2012

Cheers Joe, I stand corrected then.

Who was using the bomb then, and why didn't they let Pearl know? The goal was to interpret IJN messages AFAIK. (Maybe an example of Churchill's Coventry sacrifice, to not alert the Germans that their codes were being read?)

Rogi · Jul 25, 2012

FLYBOYJ said:
The only codes the US broke prior to Pearl Harbor were Japanese Diplomatic codes. My ex's grandfather was a cryptographer stationed in the PI at the start of the war and wrote about this in great detail

They did sink that sub....*shrugs I wasn't saying anything about the codes just the suprises !

I remember when they had that whole "Russian" military aircraft scare a couple years ago, 2 pilots flew below the alt. restrictions and had their aircraft painted in Russian markings and everyone thought it was a Russian Invasion (They were taping for some movie). If I find the article I'll post it, found it funny and sad at the same time. Especially since the two were trainers. The Pilot was a real idiot :S I beleive he got some jail time for the crime

Edit: There found it, he was buzzing the Santa Monica Pier.
If I find the one where they go "there are Russian jets invading" in the phone call, I'll post it, but its been a while since I found the vid

Video Captures Military Jet Buzzing Santa Monica Pier - ktla.com

fastmongrel · Jul 25, 2012

(1) The Hurricane was made of wood = It had some wood formers in the fuselage but they werent structral

(2) Churchill sacrificed Coventry to keep the secret of Ultra = The British knew a large raid was coming but didnt know where or when it would hit they expected it to be Liverpool. Even if they knew Coventry was the target what were they supposed to do at short notice put Coventry on wheels and move it. The LW didnt send target information via enigma they used the telex system so the secret of Ultra couldnt have been compromised.

(3) If Hitler hadnt insisted the 262 become a bomber Germany would have won the air war = Maybe if the LW had got the 262 in 1940 or 41 I could believe it but late 43 or 44 is waaaaay too late

muscogeemike · Jul 25, 2012

What about:
1. The Flying Fortress was named due to its defensive firepower
2. The Brewster Buffalo and the Bell P-39 series were failures
3. The US entered the war flying obsolete aircraft, and the US Army Air Corps or the US Air Force fought the war rather then the US ARMY Air Force
4. The Japanese always greatly outnumbered the USMC in the Pacific
5. The China Air Task Force and the 14th AF were "Flying Tigers"
6. The AVG was opposed by "Zeros" and other aircraft superior to the P-40
7. The US won the Pacific War alone
8. Russia (the USSR) only survived due to US lend lease and that their war fighting equipment was "crude" and inferior to the West.
9. The Italians, as a whole, were not fighters
10. The French should be more appreciative of the US for freeing them from the Nazi's, forgetting that without the French there probably would not be a US.
11. Maybe not a myth but that the war against Japan had huge racial overtones.

FLYBOYJ · Jul 25, 2012

A4K said:
Cheers Joe, I stand corrected then.

Who was using the bomb then, and why didn't they let Pearl know? The goal was to interpret IJN messages AFAIK. (Maybe an example of Churchill's Coventry sacrifice, to not alert the Germans that their codes were being read?)

All that was known was "somethng" was going to happen but no one knew when or where. The ex's grandfather thought the whole attack would be against the PI.

FLYBOYJ · Jul 25, 2012

Rogi said:
They did sink that sub....*shrugs I wasn't saying anything about the codes just the suprises !

I remember when they had that whole "Russian" military aircraft scare a couple years ago, 2 pilots flew below the alt. restrictions and had their aircraft painted in Russian markings and everyone thought it was a Russian Invasion (They were taping for some movie). If I find the article I'll post it, found it funny and sad at the same time. Especially since the two were trainers. The Pilot was a real idiot :S I beleive he got some jail time for the crime

Edit: There found it, he was buzzing the Santa Monica Pier.
If I find the one where they go "there are Russian jets invading" in the phone call, I'll post it, but its been a while since I found the vid

Video Captures Military Jet Buzzing Santa Monica Pier - ktla.com

I know this incident well and know both pilots involved. Can't comment much at this time but I don't remember much being said about a "Russian Invasion." All that was reposted was "military planes" were buzzing Santa Monica pier

http://www.aviationcriminal.com/riggs/

stona · Jul 25, 2012

What's this nonsense about a US "Bombe".
The wiring diagrams and plans of the British Bombes were handed to the Americans at Bletchley Park in July 1942.
The first US built Bombe was tested in May 1943.
A bit late for Pearl Harbour I think you'll agree.

It is true that the British were circumspect about handing over data from their code breaking exercises,nervous of alerting the Germans to the failiure of their codes. This did not prevent cooperation with the Americans. A US officer who visited Bletchley Park in February 1941 later wrote.

"There was complete cooperation. We went everywhere, including Hut 6. We watched the entire operation and had all the techniques explained in great detail. We were thoroughly briefed on the latest techniques in the solution of Enigma and the operations of the bombes. We had ample opportunity to take as many notes as we wanted and to watch first hand all operations involved."

That doesn't fit in with the Churchillian conspiracy theories at all.

Cheers

Steve

A4K · Jul 25, 2012

Cheers Joe, would have been interesting yarning with him me thinks...

Steve, I'll take your word on the dates, but am sure I'd read earlier. (Trouble is I'm a visual person, only important dates and numbers remain in the grey matter )

Personally I think an excuse was sought to enter the war anyway, but that's just my feeling on it.

WWII air war myths

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