WWII - Aircraft produced in large quantities that did not see combat - or very little

[nuuumannn]

Any left in museums?

As Dave said, none complete. This is the only Me 410 currently on public display, at the RAF Museum at Cosford, UK. The other is still in bits with the National Air and Space Museum. Interestingly, its airframe was converted from an Me 210.

Me 410

 

[Reluctant Poster]

To be fair, and from Wiki so........

"In September 1935 Consolidated moved across the country to its new "Building 1", a 247,000-square-foot (22,900 m2) continuous flow factory in San Diego, California. The first production PBY Catalina was launched in San Diego Bay in 1936,[3] and the first XPB2Y-1 Coronado test aircraft made its first flight in 1937.[4] Consolidated vice president Edgar Gottwas responsible for securing the company's contract to design and build the B-24 Liberator bomber."

While wikipedia may claim that the Consolidated plant was set up for full flow production the study Problems of Accelerating Aircraft Production During World War II tells a different story:

"Aircraft plant expansions after Pearl Harbor were not so great proportionally as the increases in production schedules. Because of the lack of experience in estimating the space required for volume production of airframes, more plant area was built was built in 1940 and 1941 than was really needed for the then the anticipated volume. In most plants, new production techniques enabled industry to obtain an output per square foot which was much higher than original estimates. For example, the large Consolidated plant at San Diego, substantially completed before Pearl Harbor, was able to meet schedules far higher than those planned in 1941 without major additions of productive floor area. In contrast, Boeing's early expansion in Seattle was an exception to the general rule, for it was based on a reasonably accurate estimate of square footage requirements. This attempt to work with minimum facilities and costs later turned out to be a handicap, for most of the later increases in Boeing's schedules required substantial new plant additions."

The following video illustrates the production techniques in effect at San Diego producing PBYs. As you can see it is not mass production.

 

[Shortround6]

It was mass production as it was known at the time in the aircraft industry. Photos of Bell and Curtiss factories show similar departments and sub assembly areas.

This Film may have been made well over a year before they broke Ground for the Willow run plant. It may not have been a moving assembly line but in the film the factory was already about. 1/4 the size of the Willow Run plant and we know that the Consolidated Factory was expanded (or new buildings put up a mile away) that brought it close to the size of Willow Run well before Willow run was completed. Sorting through the ford propaganda and the Consolidated Propaganda may be difficult but Consolidated had well over years head start on Ford.

 

[GrauGeist]

What year was that PBY film made?

The USN took delivery of the PBY in 1936 and to be honest, that film seemed a little relaxed as far as censorship goes.

 

[MiTasol]

What year was that PBY film made?

The USN took delivery of the PBY in 1936 and to be honest, that film seemed a little relaxed as far as censorship goes.

Definitely pre war because no blisters and counterweight propellers
From the production quantity quoted at the start I would guess 1937 using Janes 1938 greater production as a reference

 

[GrauGeist]

Definitely pre war because no blisters and counterweight propellers
From the production quantity quoted at the start I would guess 1937 using Janes 1938 greater production as a reference

Therefore, as great a video as it is, it does not reflect wartime production.

 

[Shortround6]

It does make the claim that the factory had roughly tripled in size from 1935 to the whenever the film was made (750,000 sq ft claimed?)

Consolidated did sometimes count the paved apron outdoor areas as manufacturing space. With the San Diego climate you could work out doors with only a few lost days.
There are plenty of pictures of planes being worked on outdoors at the Bell and Curtiss factories but working outdoors in Buffalo NY is not really a year round option

What was intended as a production plan in 1935 may not be how things worked out in 1939-40.

Consolidated must have had something going on as they wound up with a bunch of plants across the US by the end of the war, a few by merger, some by simple expansion ( even Brewster added at least one factory) and a number being financed by the US government so the US government must not have been too displeased with how Consolidated operated.

New Factory on Lake Pontchartrain in Louisiana was to make the New twin engine flying boat until it was canceled, then it made PBYs. The Naval Aircraft factory made PBYs, in part to free up Consolidated to make B-24s?

In any case, again from Wiki "By the fall of 1941, Consolidated was San Diego's largest employer with 25,000 employees"
In the fall of 1941 Willow Run was still under construction. While the plant did initially make parts kits for other plants it would not build it's first complete airplane until Sept 1942.

I don't believe all ( or most) of the Ford Propaganda but Consolidated did have a large head start in WW II terms.

 

[GrauGeist]

In addition to the PBY, Consolidated (San Diego) was also manufacturing the PB2Y and had several aircraft under development by the end of 1941.

 

[ado]

Would the Avro Anson come into this category? Designed as a maritime patrol aircraft and soon phased out but over 11,000 built as a trainer/communications aircraft. Remained in RAF service until 1968.

 

[special ed]

About fifty were built in Canada by Federal as AT-20 for USAAF.

 

[Conslaw]

I think maybe Brewster Aircraft deserves its own thread for the huge waste of resources that went into the production of the aircraft it built. Brewster Delivered 771SB3A Buccaneer dive bombers. None of them served in combat either with the allied units that received the majority of the production nor with the US Army and Navy which also took significant quantities. Some 300 partially-completed Buccaneers may have been scrapped when the Brewster company was shut down.

Brewster Built 735 F3A Corsairs. These Corsairs did not see combat with the US or its allies, but the reasoning seems to be lost to history somewhat. There are anecdotes of quality issues and even sabotage; but I found nothing quantitative to put the quality issues in perspective. Similarly, I found accounts that the US Navy kept F3As out of combat because of lack of interchangeability of parts, but I found no data backing up these conclusions. (Vought and Goodyear Corsairs served interchangeably).

The fate of the Brewster F3A Corsairs seems to be the same as the 348 P-47G Thunderbolts built by Curtiss Aircraft. In both cases - vague mentions of poor quality with few specifics. In both cases there were also issues of late deliveries, and perhaps that is more significant. If you are building fighter variants that the other plants building the same types moved on from 6 months ago there may just not be any demand for your product.

 

[Kevin J]

I think maybe Brewster Aircraft deserves its own thread for the huge waste of resources that went into the production of the aircraft it built. Brewster Delivered 771SB3A Buccaneer dive bombers. None of them served in combat either with the allied units that received the majority of the production nor with the US Army and Navy which also took significant quantities. Some 300 partially-completed Buccaneers may have been scrapped when the Brewster company was shut down.

Brewster Built 735 F3A Corsairs. These Corsairs did not see combat with the US or its allies, but the reasoning seems to be lost to history somewhat. There are anecdotes of quality issues and even sabotage; but I found nothing quantitative to put the quality issues in perspective. Similarly, I found accounts that the US Navy kept F3As out of combat because of lack of interchangeability of parts, but I found no data backing up these conclusions. (Vought and Goodyear Corsairs served interchangeably).

The fate of the Brewster F3A Corsairs seems to be the same as the 348 P-47G Thunderbolts built by Curtiss Aircraft. In both cases - vague mentions of poor quality with few specifics. In both cases there were also issues of late deliveries, and perhaps that is more significant. If you are building fighter variants that the other plants building the same types moved on from 6 months ago there may just not be any demand for your product.

In the case of the Buccaneer, from what I've read, removing the dive bomber requirement and pushing it into service as a light close and indirect air support aircraft would have enabled service intro in time for the Dutch East Indies campaign, which is a shame as it had quite a good performance compared to a K-27 which would have been its main opponent.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Therefore, as great a video as it is, it does not reflect wartime production.

It was not intended to illustrate wartime production. I was disputing the Wikipedia entry that claims the prewar factory was a flow through facility. It plainly is not.
If you look carefully you can see PBY-3 written on the fin of one of them which would place the year as 1937 or 38.
Consolidated built a total of 217 PBYs from 1937 to 1940. On other words a little over one a week. This was not mass production.
The much ballyhooed order for 200 PBY-5 (largest order since WWI) was placed on 20 December 1938 with first delivery on 18 September 1940. If you looks ta images form that time there does appear to be a moving assembly line.
The factory had to be completely rebuilt to facilitate production of the B-24. Here is a wartime article on production of the B-24
LiTOT: Reduction of Man-Hours In Aircraft Production
You can get lost for hours on this website

 

[Shortround6]

I was disputing the Wikipedia entry that claims the prewar factory was a flow through facility. It plainly is not.

It may have been planed as a flow through facility or it may not. Wouldn't the first time Wiki was in error.
However some of the first planes out the door were the 50 or so P-30 fighters. First one out the door was Dec 17, 1935 and the last was in July of 1936. Not mass production by WW II standards but might be ahead of what Brewster and Seversky could do several months/years later.

Factory was roughly tripled in size from when it opened making P-30s to time of the film making PBYs. Perhaps the PBYs wouldn't fit on the original production line?
And while they did build over 200 early PNYs they were ordered in 4 batches, 60 planes, then 50 planes, then 66 followed by 32 before the big order of 200 planes.
How many planes per month do you tool up for?
By the middle of 1940 the factory was nearly double the size in the film and they were working on expansions/ 2nd factory a mile away. Ford was just breaking ground?

That is the real point. The two companies were not starting from the same place. Yes, Ford screwed up a number of things.

 

[GrauGeist]

We should also take into consideration that during the depression (1930's), many American aircraft companies fell by the wayside and the ones that made it as far as the late 30's, were going to be in survival mode - meaning minimal manpower and cost-saving measures.
So Consolidated was only going to have on hand, what was nessecary to fullfill contracts.

Of course, the war changed that for everyone later on.