WWII - Aircraft produced in large quantities that did not see combat - or very little

[Shortround6]

Were they a total waste or were they used for training?

It seems to have take until the summer of 1943 for any replacement for the B-24D to show up, the B-24F was one aircraft with an experimental de-icing system. The B-24H may have beat the B-24G (North American built) into production, both fitted with nose turrets instead of the glazed nose of the B-24D. The first 25 B-26Gs had the old nose but it seems to have taken NA a number of months to build those 25 planes or to switch over to the G-1 with the nose turret.
The first H models show up in June of 1943. They had been working on the nose turret installation since the fall of 1942.

Please see The Liberator Production Pool

for one account of some of the difficulties in getting mass production in five different factories going.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

They were used for training, but if even 100 of them could have been sent to Coastal Command a few less merchantman seaman might have died. Certainly the B-24D was suitable for maritime duties so why not the E?
While Ford was bragging about revolutionizing the aircraft industry Boeing was actually quietly building large numbers of B-17s.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Starting on page 518 of the attached book is an excellent synopsis of the problems of Willow Run. If you continue reading it also discuses the huge efforts made in the aircraft modification centers where the products of "mass production" were taken apart and rebuilt into useful aircraft. The mass production of aircraft was bit of myth, particularly for heavy bombers with the B-24 worst of all. An additional 30 to 50% of the initial cost of a bomber was spent in the modification centers.

 

[MiTasol]

Starting on page 518 of the attached book is an excellent synopsis of the problems of Willow Run. If you continue reading it also discuses the huge efforts made in the aircraft modification centers where the products of "mass production" were taken apart and rebuilt into useful aircraft. The mass production of aircraft was bit of myth, particularly for heavy bombers with the B-24 worst of all. An addition 30 to 50% of the initial cost of a bomber was spent in the modification centers.

Thank you
I read that years ago and remembered those items in it that interested me but for the life of me I could not remember the name of the publication.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I have attached some articles on aircraft modification centers

 

[BiffF15]

The champion waste of resources has to be the B-24E. Willow Run produced 801 of them (including knock down kits for final assembly by Consolidated and Douglas). Because Willow Run was so slow in getting up and running (Will It Run) and because Fords production methods were so inflexible, they were obsolete before they left the factory. As such none of them saw combat. This was in late 1942 and early 1943 when there was a massive shortage of heavy bombers with, for example, RAF Coastal Command having to use inferior aircraft in the Battle of the Atlantic.
The expenditure on 800 four engine bombers is far more significant than on any of the other aircraft named so far.

Okay, here is a counterpoint. Ford made 8600 total B24s at something like 1 an hour eventually. Inflexible Ford may have been, but well learned at mass production he was. Invaluable is another word I would use as well. Why was his company so inflexible, why did it take so long to get set up? I thought that an entire community was built up from scratch around the plant, and all the work force had to be completely trained? Also, was this agreed upon in the contract with the USAAC? More info please.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[michael rauls]

Wow, stamping out B24s at one per hr. That is truly mind boggling.

 

[Shortround6]

Okay, here is a counterpoint. Ford made 8600 total B24s at something like 1 an hour eventually. Inflexible Ford may have been, but well learned at mass production he was. Invaluable is another word I would use as well. Why was his company so inflexible, why did it take so long to get set up? I thought that an entire community was built up from scratch around the plant, and all the work force had to be completely trained? Also, was this agreed upon in the contract with the USAAC? More info please.

Cheers,
Biff

There were quite a few problems at the Ford plant, some of them were Ford's own making. There were quite a few labor troubles to start with and Ford was anti-union, not a good combination to start with. One reason for the "entire community was built up from scratch around the plant" was that the plant was in the middle of nowhere for all practical purposes. It took 1 to 1 1/2 hours to drive there one way from the largest available housing market. Gas and tires were rationed so driving wasn't a good option. Not only did the workers have to be trained, they had to be retrained, and then trained again. Not literally the same workers but turn over was high.

From Joe Baugher;s web site:

"In only one month, Ford had hired 2900 workers but had lost 3100"

and "In addition, Henry Ford refused on principle to hire women. However, he finally relented and did employ "Rosie the Riveters" on his assembly lines, probably more because so many of his potential male workers had been drafted into the military than due to any sudden development of a social conscience on his part."

In the US the workers were not forced to stay at one factory. If they didn't like the conditions at one factory they could move to another city and find employment at another factory, especially if they had several months or a years experience. Trying to play hardball with management vs worker relations doesn't work well when there is a labor shortage all over the country. Management doesn't have to give in on everything but they have to give in enough to at least make most of the workers think twice about moving to another city/state.

 

[special ed]

When finally up to speed,Willow Run had one rolling out every 55 minutes around the clock. That's the record. Sometimes one every 60-62 minutes. If we could have gotten Germany and Japan to believe it, the war could have ended earlier.

 

[special ed]

The total production per day of Boeing and North American, each, was similar, while Kaiser was doing the same with Liberty ships.

 

[Dan Fahey]

The Hungarians used the Me 210C which had about a 0.9 meters longer fuselage with solved many of the handling problems. The Luftwaffe got about 2/3rds of Hungarian production.
The Hungarians also used a licence built DB605 engine instead of the DB 601 used in the early Me 210s (more power) but lighter than the DB 603s used in the Me 410.

The Me210 and Me 410 were supposed to be improved aircraft over the Me110.
But have not seen any history or data that suggest they performed better or were more reliable !
In fact from what I read there were issues with the them.

 

[Csch605]

P-63 Kingcobra, a modernised P-39 but only entered service in 1944 when P-51 and P-47.

3300 built, i don't think USAAF used it in combat and USSR seems to have not used them until August 1944, and then only 1-2 squadrons.

The P63 was used in Manchuria and in Korea in WW2 against Imperial Japan and the Manchukuo Empire installed by the Japanese. Also during the invasion of the Kuril Islands by Russia in August 1945. Limited action over Germany since by then Russia knew Germany was collapsing. The fresh P63s got stockpiled in Siberia for the next big operation that they were 2 years late at getting around to.

 

[Csch605]

Brewster Buccaneer/Bermuda.

"Due to the poor performance of the SB2A, many of the completed aircraft were scrapped by the RAF and US Navy without having been flown operationally.[4] The US Navy cancelled its remaining order of the type in 1943. A total of 771 SB2As were eventually completed"

This airplane was used at Singapore, FInnland, Midway, Belgium, Dutch East Indies and Wake Island.

 

[Shortround6]

This airplane was used at Singapore, FInnland, Midway, Belgium, Dutch East Indies and Wake Island.

SB2A-4 Brewster Buccaneer.

F2A Brewster Buffalo

Do you have any sources that say the SB2A 2 seat dive bomber was used in Finland? or at Singapore? Or the Dutch East Indies?

Most accounts say that the defenders at Wake Island used Grumman F4F-3s with no Brewster products of any type being stationed there.

 

[GrauGeist]

This airplane was used at Singapore, FInnland, Midway, Belgium, Dutch East Indies and Wake Island.

Deliveries of the SB2A started in mid-summer of '42...well after the battles of Singapore, Midway and Wake happened.
The only nations that operated the SB2A/Bermuda were Britain and the US and only for a short time and none ever saw combat.

 

[fubar57]

Canada had three Bermudas, s/n. FF568, FF718, FF732. Harold A. Skaarup, author of Shelldrake

 

[buffnut453]

Canada had three Bermudas, s/n. FF568, FF718, FF732. Harold A. Skaarup, author of Shelldrake

A fearsome force, to be sure. No wonder Germany surrendered!

 

[fubar57]

buffnut453 Check out the post from Andy in the "Things that make you go hmmmm" thread

 

[Stelth]

I have been interested, off-and-on, in WWII aircraft for probably 50 years. I had never heard of the F3A until this thread. It's amazing to me that someone could take such a well-proven design, and screw it up badly enough as to make it useless.

 

[buffnut453]

I have been interested, off-and-on, in WWII aircraft for probably 50 years. I had never heard of the F3A until this thread. It's amazing to me that someone could take such a well-proven design, and screw it up badly enough as to make it useless.

It wasn't so much screwing up the design as some monumental quality control problems on the production line. That plus atrocious industrial relations between the bosses and the unions. Taken together, I think the USN and USMC were entirely right not to trust the aircraft in combat environments.