In fact there are a series of 3 books on the subject, see: Bokförlaget Air Historic Research on the right column the 3 uppermost.
Juha
WWII shirkers and defectors
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In fact there are a series of 3 books on the subject, see: Bokförlaget Air Historic Research on the right column the 3 uppermost.
Juha
Thanks for that link, it's got some excellent pics of Mossies I'd not seen before. I have been able to reconcile the entries there with my Mossie loss database - I tend to attribute losses to a cause where known, so I had some of those ones down as lost to flak, as opposed to landed in Sweden.
The pics of PZ164 are of interest to me, since they demonstrate that 487 Squadron, which at that time was normally operating at night with shrouded exhausts, had fitted stub exhausts for an extra turn of speed for the raid on the Aarhus Gestapo building.
For what it's worth to the OP, here's the misadventure the crew went through. Note they were returned to the U.K. a couple of weeks later:
"31.10.1944 Bombing Gestapo Headquarter 487 to Aarhus DK from Thorney Island belly landed and burnt. Harplinge, Halmstad, Sweden 1245 (Nöd). W/C Thomas ok, F/L Humphry- Baker ok, Crew interned and returned to UK in November 44 For the "Department of Useless Information" I provide, below, the MI.9 report of W/C William Lewis Thomas, DSO, DFC, who force-landed in Sweden 1 November 1944. His report was based on interviews of 25 November 1944, jointly with his navigator, one F/L Humphrey-Baker (probably Peter Rodney Humphrey-Baker, DFC).
There are several interesting elements here, such as the rather humorous escape attempt by Thomas and the obvious confusion over the duties of the British Consul at Gothenburg. However, the most striking thing here is the mention of W/C Thomas - a temporarily interened office - being engaged in the ferrying of a PRU Mosquito within Sweden. One would have thought that any such aircraft, if still operational, would have been interned as well.
"We took off from Thorney Island at 0700 hours on 1 November 1944 in a Mosquito aircraft. We landed at Swanton Morley to refuel, taking off on our mission which was to bomb the Gestapo Headquarters at Aarhus, Denmark at 0930 hours.
"We had released our bombs and as we passed over the target at 100 feet the bombs which had been released by a preceding aircraft exploded. Our aircraft was damaged and we were forced to feather the starboard propeller. We therefore followed briefing instructions and orders from the formation leaser and flew to Sweden.
"We landed in a field near the village of Harplinge, near Halmstadt, Sweden and burned the aircraft. A policeman held us until the Army authorities arrived. We were then taken to Halmstadt and billeted at the Grand Hotel under armed guard. An interrogation was attempted but was not pressed.
"On 2 November we were taken to Faulin via Gothenburg. At Gothenburg we escaped from our escort with the idea of reaching the British Consul. (We had been given to understand at the Squadron that if we could reach the British Consul in a neutral country we would be repatriated immediately.
"Wing Commander Thomas
"I ran from the brightly lighted railway station at Gothenburg into a dark square. Running accross the square I jumped over a low chain. In mid air I realised that I had jumped out over a canal but it was too late to do anything about it. I fell 15 feet into the water and was pulled out and recaptured by the escort, police and civilians.
"F/L Humphrey-Baker
"I had been running just behind W/C Thomas and when he disappeared I realised his mistake and turned to one side just in time. I continued on and reached the British Consul, who immediately turned me over to the police, where I rejoined W/C Thomas. We were then taken to Falun together.
"On 3 November we were billeted at the Solliden Pensionat Hotel and we were kept there until 14 November. During that time W/C Thomas ferried a PRU Mosquito from Malmo to Linkaping at the request of the Air Attache. On 14 November we went to Stockholm to be repatriated. On 23 November we were sent to the UK by air."
(http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3869) Damaged by blast from bombs Aarhus and failed to return 31.10.44 (Air Britain Serials)"
Glider
Captain
My father was a CO at the start of WW2 having been was engaged to a german. He actually wanted to stay with her but the family urged him to leave and he left Germany three days before war broke out. He stayed a CO until 1941 when he became fed up with people using it as a way of avoiding danger and joined the Army serving in the RAMC.
By the time the war finished he was an RSM which for a CO must be something of a record and was close to where the family lived. He was able to visit the family and by good fortune they had all survived. The brother was a POW in Italy, she had met and married someone else during the war and had a daughter.
On his army records, his joining as 'being deemed to have been conscripted'
By the time the war finished he was an RSM which for a CO must be something of a record and was close to where the family lived. He was able to visit the family and by good fortune they had all survived. The brother was a POW in Italy, she had met and married someone else during the war and had a daughter.
On his army records, his joining as 'being deemed to have been conscripted'
GregP
Major
What is RAMC and RSM (I assume Royal Sergeant Major)?
Glider
Captain
Regimental Sergeant Major.
Grep P, RAMC is Royal Army Medical Corps.
Leonard Cheshire the famous Victoria Cross holding RAF pathfinder and bomber pilot became a pacifist after witnessing the dropping of the atomic bomb on Nagasaki whilst flying as an observer in a B29. He spent the rest of his life helping the sick and founded a number of hospices but I can not remember if Cheshire's change of attitude made him regret his actions during World War Two, my understanding from reading his book Leonard Cheshire VC is that even though he believed that war was wrong there is still a need for self defence.
Leonard Cheshire the famous Victoria Cross holding RAF pathfinder and bomber pilot became a pacifist after witnessing the dropping of the atomic bomb on Nagasaki whilst flying as an observer in a B29. He spent the rest of his life helping the sick and founded a number of hospices but I can not remember if Cheshire's change of attitude made him regret his actions during World War Two, my understanding from reading his book Leonard Cheshire VC is that even though he believed that war was wrong there is still a need for self defence.
drgondog
Major
Interesting discussion touching on philosophical perspectives about the role of man within his belief structure... which more often than not is shaped by the beliefs of those around him and the political infrastructure of his country of residence.
For me, shaped by the political framework framed by the US Constitution and the role assumed by America immediately post WWII, I have formed my own opinions which I accept are not Universal Truths.
If, as an American, you hold the Constitution dear (you folks of the Commonwealth and the Empire and others are not so inclined) then you must recognize that all able bodied 'men' between the ages of 18 and 45 are 'militia' in a time of crisis, obligated to be armed and ready to be incorporated into regulated units - the foundation of the legal draft. The practice and the political divisions that exist today obscure that obligation. Further, we do not have the political will to keep our noses out of global conflicts and send our volunteer militia to various hell holes to serve one political objective or another - usually in the name of preserving 'democracy'.
Our politicians have no compunction to consider being the 'point of the spear' whenever they send our 'militia' so the only skin they have in the game is political consequences when they vote to authorize a deployment. I would change that - and require that every Congressman designate a replacement 'for the duration plus a day' and immediately place them under command of the nearest military authority to be assigned any duties they may be fit for..
Our troops are now equivalent to the Roman Legions in that they are not civilians until the glass shield over the War switch is broken. They are now professional warriors choosing of a military career of operating within the political structure of the Joint Chiefs. Each swears an oath to uphold our Constitution and protects It (not the President, not 'America') from all enemies foreign and domestic. Each must navigate 'correctly' between the shoals of 'performance' and 'political requirements' for continuation of career and service.
We have not declared a War since December 8, 1945 yet we deploy our blood to every hot spot on this planet to spill (and spill others that do not give a tinker's damn about our Constitution or our righteousness and belief that we know what is good and proper for all. Yet Congress is only authority to declare War. That we routinely deploy and enter into armed conflict without a declaration of War is in my opinion a violation of Section 8. Libya is a huge illustration.
Our warriors survive their career to receive pensions based on achievement and commendation - but are subordinate to the politics of command during their career... in an environment that does not encourage 'radical or non-conforming beliefs'. Practically speaking, no armed force may function smoothly and efficiently with a host of free thinkers in the ranks. Therefore the quality of a military force staffed by conscripts is dubious.
When the draft existed our armed forces were integrated with professionals and civilian militia - many of which did not want to be there, a few who would question everything, and a few that would thoughtfully ask 'Why' when stupidity prevailed.
To the point of my ramble.
I have watched careers of dedicated professionals stalled or ruined when they didn't 'go along to get along' in their devotion to doing things in a better way relative to the job - namely killing the guys they were sent to kill while losing the fewest of their comrades - and getting out of dodge. The awareness first started in Vietnam era but I have made that observation as our warriors transitioned from Citizen Soldiers led by professionals to professionals led by managers and politicians in many instances at O-6 and above - Particularly Above.
I am of the opinion that:
1. We do not embark offshore without total commitment and NATIONAL resolve that a crisis threatening our Constitutional Republic's existence is upon us.
2. That every Citizen 18-45 be integrated in some form of 'milita' Reserve whether as a medic, a rifleman, a clerk typist, engineer and that such Voluntary service, as a civilian operating within a Reserve infrastructure for contingency military training, is a requisite to have voting rights and eligibility to serve in elected leadership capacity. Such Voluntary service in Governmental supervised activities as Peace Corps also qualifies for those CO's as exist. This 'militia' would report to the Governors of the States and service in this reserve expires after two years, unless and until called to active duty in the National Emergency, whereupon the 'militia' would be subordinate to the CIC and integrated into US Military command structure..
3. That the Commander in Chief NEVER be permitted to deploy troops to another country without explicit majority vote of approval of Congress within 30 days of notice from CiC that such deployment is necessary and argue personally in the Well of Congress for such deployment. Further, that such deployment as granted, may not continue unless War is declared.
4. That our DoD leadership be subject to anonymous 360 degree performance review by our troops, such survey to be conducted by an outside civilian agency reporting to the President and presented to Congress annually prior to selection and approval of all General officers presented by military promotions board..
For me, shaped by the political framework framed by the US Constitution and the role assumed by America immediately post WWII, I have formed my own opinions which I accept are not Universal Truths.
If, as an American, you hold the Constitution dear (you folks of the Commonwealth and the Empire and others are not so inclined) then you must recognize that all able bodied 'men' between the ages of 18 and 45 are 'militia' in a time of crisis, obligated to be armed and ready to be incorporated into regulated units - the foundation of the legal draft. The practice and the political divisions that exist today obscure that obligation. Further, we do not have the political will to keep our noses out of global conflicts and send our volunteer militia to various hell holes to serve one political objective or another - usually in the name of preserving 'democracy'.
Our politicians have no compunction to consider being the 'point of the spear' whenever they send our 'militia' so the only skin they have in the game is political consequences when they vote to authorize a deployment. I would change that - and require that every Congressman designate a replacement 'for the duration plus a day' and immediately place them under command of the nearest military authority to be assigned any duties they may be fit for..
Our troops are now equivalent to the Roman Legions in that they are not civilians until the glass shield over the War switch is broken. They are now professional warriors choosing of a military career of operating within the political structure of the Joint Chiefs. Each swears an oath to uphold our Constitution and protects It (not the President, not 'America') from all enemies foreign and domestic. Each must navigate 'correctly' between the shoals of 'performance' and 'political requirements' for continuation of career and service.
We have not declared a War since December 8, 1945 yet we deploy our blood to every hot spot on this planet to spill (and spill others that do not give a tinker's damn about our Constitution or our righteousness and belief that we know what is good and proper for all. Yet Congress is only authority to declare War. That we routinely deploy and enter into armed conflict without a declaration of War is in my opinion a violation of Section 8. Libya is a huge illustration.
Our warriors survive their career to receive pensions based on achievement and commendation - but are subordinate to the politics of command during their career... in an environment that does not encourage 'radical or non-conforming beliefs'. Practically speaking, no armed force may function smoothly and efficiently with a host of free thinkers in the ranks. Therefore the quality of a military force staffed by conscripts is dubious.
When the draft existed our armed forces were integrated with professionals and civilian militia - many of which did not want to be there, a few who would question everything, and a few that would thoughtfully ask 'Why' when stupidity prevailed.
To the point of my ramble.
I have watched careers of dedicated professionals stalled or ruined when they didn't 'go along to get along' in their devotion to doing things in a better way relative to the job - namely killing the guys they were sent to kill while losing the fewest of their comrades - and getting out of dodge. The awareness first started in Vietnam era but I have made that observation as our warriors transitioned from Citizen Soldiers led by professionals to professionals led by managers and politicians in many instances at O-6 and above - Particularly Above.
I am of the opinion that:
1. We do not embark offshore without total commitment and NATIONAL resolve that a crisis threatening our Constitutional Republic's existence is upon us.
2. That every Citizen 18-45 be integrated in some form of 'milita' Reserve whether as a medic, a rifleman, a clerk typist, engineer and that such Voluntary service, as a civilian operating within a Reserve infrastructure for contingency military training, is a requisite to have voting rights and eligibility to serve in elected leadership capacity. Such Voluntary service in Governmental supervised activities as Peace Corps also qualifies for those CO's as exist. This 'militia' would report to the Governors of the States and service in this reserve expires after two years, unless and until called to active duty in the National Emergency, whereupon the 'militia' would be subordinate to the CIC and integrated into US Military command structure..
3. That the Commander in Chief NEVER be permitted to deploy troops to another country without explicit majority vote of approval of Congress within 30 days of notice from CiC that such deployment is necessary and argue personally in the Well of Congress for such deployment. Further, that such deployment as granted, may not continue unless War is declared.
4. That our DoD leadership be subject to anonymous 360 degree performance review by our troops, such survey to be conducted by an outside civilian agency reporting to the President and presented to Congress annually prior to selection and approval of all General officers presented by military promotions board..
If you consider Russians as allied, the number of allied defectors was about two to three magnitudes bigger than axis defectors. Vlasov's army consisted more than 100 battalions, and the other "Hilfswilliger" consisted hundred of thousands volunteers. They apparently considered Hitler's tyranny less evil than Stalin's.
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drgondog
Major
Not meant with any disrespect - simply It is Our code of Law - not yours
Balljoint
Senior Airman
Don't agree entirely. What you describe is pretty much the US of WWII. After the war, Truman attempted to demobilize and return the country to civilian needs and control. He was cut off at the knees by Korea where a lot of blood was wasted due to being unprepared. With China and the Soviets involved on a shadow basis –until China was spooked by troops on her border-, formal war was reasonably viewed as leading to nuclear war. So a "police action" fiction was used to avoid escalation. Other than the fact that it worked it was a dumb idea. The guys on the line were put in a no-win situation. Still the losses were probably fewer than under Mac Arthur's approach.
Whether by plan or default, Korea was in accord with Kennan's Containment strategy for dealing with the Soviets. Their system wasn't sustainable so just stress them and wait things out. It's in this context that I –and probably only I- don't view the Vietnam action as a lost war. The war was the Cold War and Nam was a lost campaign, like Corregidor. The Cold War whimpered away without a nuclear incident.
But, as you point out, corners were cut and the military took the dirty end of it. At least during a formal war there's appreciation.
My view of the Constitution is that it limits government. Thus, except during times of extreme threat, years of involuntary servitude by citizens is not a citizen "duty". Perhaps it's time to revisit Truman's stand down. The professional military then would be deployed only in circumstances of dire threat. And, if necessary, the militia could be called up. If Europe is an example, there would be few call ups and limited deployments.
Depending on the circumstances any country would be forced to consider conscription, it ended in Britain about 1960 but I think the French, German's and Italians still have it and I know that the Greeks still do. I think the German's may use their conscripts more on social projects than training for war. Like somebody said earlier things have changed and it wouldn't be possible to drag millions of kids off the street and train them up like in past wars, no country could afford all the high tech weapons used today for a start. There seems to be a tradition of making the mistake of assuming that each war is going to be fought the same as the last, the truth is nobody knows what it will be like or even who it will be against. So many big companies have their money spread all other the world as well these days instead of just in their own countries like before, so war would be bad for business.
parsifal
Colonel
Mostly I agree DG with you main post, but i have to rise and make a couple of observations.
The British dont have a written constitution, but they have a very strong unwritten constitution that is every bit as powerful as the American Constitution, and as enforceable and defensible.And British are fierce in their defence of it. The difference that the English Constitution is firmly embedded in English Common Law....things like the right to a fair trial, the freedom of religion, the right of free men to vote, are not written down (or werent) but are as strongly defencible as anything in the US Consitution. The reason your founding fathers found it necessary to make a declaration, and then codify it, was because they wanted to preserve those inane human rights, and when they declared independance they placed those rights at risk. The Bill of Rights and the American Constitution is an affirmation of the continuation of English laws and freedoms.
We do hold to those principals as strongly as any American, and in fact, moreso......
For Australia, we also made established our unification, unlike the Americans our Federation was done peacefully. But because we were still establishing our own self rule, and because we still wanted to preserve our British legal and liberty traditions, we also needed to write a constitution. Our constitution is admittedly more about preserving the rights of the states, and the relationships with the Feds,but it also includes declarations about human freedoms and inalienable rights.
Because we won our rights to freedom by peaceful means, we dont hold our constitution as religiously as Americans. But we do hold to our rights and responsiblities to the and from the nation even more strongly than you guys. i say that from my year of exposure to US servicemen and civilians.
The Germans stopped conscription 2 years ago.
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
Conscription also stopped in France years ago. Possibly after the Gulf War when it was realised that, out of a large army, only one light division was fit to send abroad, so the emphasis changed to a smaller professional army.
drgondog
Major
If our polls are to be believed, we are at a nexus point where a large percentage of our population do not truly understand, or particularly care, about both the Rights and the obligations inherent in our Constitution. Our Second Amendment and First Amendment and State Governments are the keys to holding an over reaching Federal Government at bay.
IMO -You are watching an historical change in our history unfold today... and remember my views and opinions are my own.
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drgondog
Major
The concept that Only professional military should be deployed is what bothers me the most. If our Constitution is sacred, then Everybody must have skin in the game in times of dire circumstances - I am so against perpetual deployment to extend our footprint based on our political leader's view of Pax Americana to bring Democracy to the World - without commitment of said politicians to sacrifices equivalent of those they send to far shores.
I am so angry at the Perfumed Princes at flag level rank making bean counter decisions regarding our crippled warriors after placing them in harm's way for obscure reasons NOT related to defense of the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic. I am equally angry at politicians directing and tolerating multiple deployment of our citizens in ranks where there is no danger to our Republic. If you want to argue that we are in a war against terror, I would argue that nothing we are doing offshore with boots on the ground today is eliminating that threat - and we are creating a monster relative to the powers of the executive office with respect to abuse of the Bill of Rights.. think FISA, Patriot Act, NDAA and the abuses that emerge daily regarding treating citizens as 'political enemies'.
Some shirkers bother me more than others...John Wayne made millions making war films while taking a deferment.
As opposed to folks like Jimmy Stewart who was rejected once because he was too skinny, so he "fattened up" and reapplied, ultimately retiring as a Brigadier General in the Air Force reserve.
I dont have an issue with defectors...if that is where their loyalties lie, then youre free to leave. Id rather you not come back.
I dont necessarily agree with some of the shirkers but I can understand some of their reasoning. Its one thing indeed when your country is attacked, yet quite another when its a politically motivated fight where we are losing people for a very ambigous strategy.
Most of it depends on what the fight is about, at least to me. That said, I enlisted in the Army when it was not popular to do so mainly because I saw good people that I personally knew going off to fight and some of them coming home in a box, many others wounded, and most of them trying to deal with the horror they had to deal with.
The wars we see now are not flag against flag, but ideals. Unconventional wars can be successfully fought, but it takes tenacity and the will of the people to see it to the end. There are a lot of folks asking honest questions about the WOT and not getting answers which will hold up to much scrutiny. Having the people at home behind the fight is absolutely vital.
The debate between professional armies and conscripted will go on forever. America fought WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam with consripts and the results are obivous to me that it depends more on what the fight is about, the strategic goals of the fight, and whether the folks back home can be convinced of its necessity. Whether or not the soldier is drafted or is a professional depends very much on the leadership as to their effectiveness.
As opposed to folks like Jimmy Stewart who was rejected once because he was too skinny, so he "fattened up" and reapplied, ultimately retiring as a Brigadier General in the Air Force reserve.
I dont have an issue with defectors...if that is where their loyalties lie, then youre free to leave. Id rather you not come back.
I dont necessarily agree with some of the shirkers but I can understand some of their reasoning. Its one thing indeed when your country is attacked, yet quite another when its a politically motivated fight where we are losing people for a very ambigous strategy.
Most of it depends on what the fight is about, at least to me. That said, I enlisted in the Army when it was not popular to do so mainly because I saw good people that I personally knew going off to fight and some of them coming home in a box, many others wounded, and most of them trying to deal with the horror they had to deal with.
The wars we see now are not flag against flag, but ideals. Unconventional wars can be successfully fought, but it takes tenacity and the will of the people to see it to the end. There are a lot of folks asking honest questions about the WOT and not getting answers which will hold up to much scrutiny. Having the people at home behind the fight is absolutely vital.
The debate between professional armies and conscripted will go on forever. America fought WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam with consripts and the results are obivous to me that it depends more on what the fight is about, the strategic goals of the fight, and whether the folks back home can be convinced of its necessity. Whether or not the soldier is drafted or is a professional depends very much on the leadership as to their effectiveness.
