1/32 Revell Spitfire MKIIa

[Wurger]

Yes that sounds good. Anyway I also don't think the NK-K had the spinner and band of the Sky Blue. The lighter colour there could be because of refreshing them by the maintence crew, especially that the P8088 looks like being wearing a little bit wron out "uniform".

But EB-Z and EB-J seem to be "corrected" with the spinner colour and added bands. Their code letters seem to retain the grey colour used earlier.

 

[Robert Porter]

I have nothing to back this up with other than observation. That said it seems to me, particularly after the BoB timeframe, British ground crews took better than average care of their aircraft. Most pictures show well cleaned, and often touched up aircraft. I would conjecture that squadron markings may have often been applied in colors as close as possible to what was required but may not have always been exactly correct depending on wartime exigencies and availability of proper colored paints. The only time I have seen truly weathered RAF aircraft were those in the Pacific, Med and other harsh environments. And even there the aircraft are generally cosmetically in better shape than their American and other allied counterparts. Is this a reasonable conjecture? Or am I all wet?

 

[stona]

I've just seen the date and was working on a false premise!
Given that the subject (P7849) is being modelled as it was in the early summer of 1941, BEFORE the DFS was introduced, then I believe it is entirely possible that Sky Blue may have been used erroneously for the fuselage band and spinner. The code letters would be Medium Sea Grey, so are unsurprisingly darker than the band and spinner.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Wurger]

What aboiut that?

Antrvm Ratvs - RAF Skies

However these colours in the four, last pics there seem to be totally wrong recognized. The undersides were of the Medium Sea Grey but not the Sky Blue, I would say.

 

[stona]

I'm not sure what he means saying that

"This color was proposed by the British Air Ministry in 1940 as a pale greenish gray similar to FS 34324 [1] to be used on fighters and bombers. The name Sky, however, was forged only later in that year."

Sky was simply a name given to the already existing camouflage colour 'Camotint' developed by Sidney Cotton as a colour for PRU aircraft. It is referred to as Sky in the AMO specifying the new underside colour for the Temperate Land Scheme, the name did not come later. As of 20th April 1940 (before the colour was introduced to Fighter Command) a signal clarified that

"As regards colour the pale blue-green which has previously been called Camotint is now defined as standard Sky..."

As for this

"Sky Blue: This was the underside color preferred by the Fighter Command. It was a pastel blue shade described as Duck Egg Blue"

Sky replaced black and white undersides on Fighter Command aircraft and these in turn had replaced the silver undersides.Fighter Command NEVER used and certainly did not 'prefer' Sky Blue as an underside colour.

What certainly did happen was that the new colour Sky was confused by some with Sky Blue. The Air Ministry sent a clarification to all Commands explaining that the new Sky colour "may be described as Duck Egg Bluish Green" in an attempt to prevent the wrong colour being applied. This may be where the author of that article got the notion that a

"non-official designation Duck Egg Green may have been invented to differentiate the Sky Type S from the Sky Blue (Duck Egg Blue)."

which is also incorrect, he's not doing well so far

When the Sky fuselage band was introduced in December 1940 everyone should have been aware of the correct colour and have had adequate supplies. I would be surprised if the wrong colour was applied, but it is not impossible.
The spinner is a little more difficult because they were painted the relevant colour and balanced by the manufacturer.

The choice for this subject is really one of two. The band and spinner were both painted or re-painted in the wrong colour (Sky Blue) or we are seeing a significant fading of an original Sky finish. Ian Huntley observed that some Sky batches faded badly and quickly to an almost white finish.
There is some evidence to support some aircraft receiving the wrong colour, so it can't be discounted, certainly those not at front line units. There is also evidence of inconsistencies in the colour Sky which might explain discrepancies.

In the context of British produced fighters in 1940/41 both Sky Grey and Eau de Nil are red herrings.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Wurger]

THX.

 

[pbehn]

I seem to remember reading a tale of men looking around for ducks eggs to find out what kind of blue or green it should be.

 

[Totalize]

Sorry for stirring up some controversy on the subject of Sky and Sky Blue. I think the comments about the factory being mandated to paint the aircraft in sky type s /day fighter scheme colours by the air ministry is golden for the aircraft I am gong to do. I did some more research and I believe it was Edgar Brooks who essentially said after the BOB period this was correct but not during. Due to shortages of Sky Type S (unofficially Duck Egg Green) Sky Blue was used on some field re-paints of Spitfires by squadron maintenance crews during the BOB period.

 

[Totalize]

I have nothing to back this up with other than observation. That said it seems to me, particularly after the BoB timeframe, British ground crews took better than average care of their aircraft. Most pictures show well cleaned, and often touched up aircraft. I would conjecture that squadron markings may have often been applied in colors as close as possible to what was required but may not have always been exactly correct depending on wartime exigencies and availability of proper colored paints. The only time I have seen truly weathered RAF aircraft were those in the Pacific, Med and other harsh environments. And even there the aircraft are generally cosmetically in better shape than their American and other allied counterparts. Is this a reasonable conjecture? Or am I all wet?

Here's some evidence that Spitfires could get well worn during operations. Check out the paint chipping on the walkways near the cockpit.

Fuel spills from refueling the aircraft.

 

[Wurger]

Here is a colour shot of an early Spitfire. You may notice that the band and the spinner are much lighter than the undersides.The spinner and the fuselage strip are not of the Sky Blue but of a colour that matches to the origin Humbrol 23 Duck Egg Blue that was offered by the firm many years ago. Although there is the "Blue" in the name of the paint it isn't that blue like the one you have used for the spinner. It is very light white-greenish with a little of the blue tinge..I have an old Spitfire model painted just with the old Humbrol paint and it looks exactly like that one in the pic. In the daylight , or better, on a sunny day it looks almost like a white with subtle blue-greenish tone . IMHO if any paint was used for painting/re-painting of the ID markings it was just the Duck Egg Blue paint but not the Sky Blue. Of course it could have happened that there was used a mixture based on the Sky Blue. But the effect would be the same.

 

[Robert Porter]

Here's some evidence that Spitfires could get well worn during operations. Check out the paint chipping on the walkways near the cockpit.

Fuel spills from refueling the aircraft.

View attachment 377799

Oh I did not mean to imply they never got rough looking, especially those outside Britain, just that they seemed to be in general more well cared for than your average bear. Operational tempo had as much to do with it as weather I would imagine.

 

[stona]

There are a lot of reproductions of that series of colour photographs of Spitfire (which featured in Life magazine) and the colour of the band and spinner is different in all of them. Some argue for Sky Blue, some for a faded Sky.
What colour is the band here?

Cheers

Steve

 

[Wurger]

IMHO it is still the same although the pic got more of the red filter than the one I posted above ( btw.. more of the blue in the one ).

The band seems to be of white-blue-greenish tone even with some of blue filter added to the pic.

.

 

[stona]

An off white greenish tone definitely implies a faded Sky. I believe that others have concluded that the photo series was taken in the summer of 1941.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Wurger]

Still not convinced it could be the faded Sky Blue. More likely it would be the faded Duck Egg Blue and that tone of the colour I would follow painting my model rather.

 

[stona]

Sorry for stirring up some controversy on the subject of Sky and Sky Blue. I think the comments about the factory being mandated to paint the aircraft in sky type s /day fighter scheme colours by the air ministry is golden for the aircraft I am gong to do. I did some more research and I believe it was Edgar Brooks who essentially said after the BOB period this was correct but not during. Due to shortages of Sky Type S (unofficially Duck Egg Green) Sky Blue was used on some field re-paints of Spitfires by squadron maintenance crews during the BOB period.

Edgar was always very suspicious of anything that was contrary to regulations! Having said that there is no doubt that the introduction of Sky, which was a new colour to Fighter Command camouflage, even if Camotint had been in very limited use for a while, caused some confusion. There is some evidence that No.74 Squadron applied Sky Blue to the undersides of its aircraft in error. ZP-A (possibly K9953) flown by none other than Adolph 'Sailor' Malan being a case in point. Other Spitfires of No.610 Squadron and Hurricanes of No.238 Squadron also have some suspicious looking undersides. There are others, some aircraft from Nos. 222 and 66 Squadrons to name but two. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that when confronted with an order to paint the undersides of the squadron aircraft in the unknown and novel colour Sky that the relevant person might draw from the stores tins of Sky Blue in error and start applying this. There was also a severe shortage of Sky, and following clarification and its description as "Duck Egg Bluish Green" (underlined in the original order) there may have been some ham fisted attempts to mix something to match this.
All this only applies to aircraft already in service. Aircraft coming out of the factories would be inspected by MAP officials (who were attached to the factories) and an error like this would not have been allowed to pass. If Sky was not available then the Night/White underside would have been used, and there was a dispensation to allow this while supplies were sorted.
I'd also bet (but can't prove) that what paint was available went to the manufacturers first and to the MUs second. The squadrons would have been the last to receive supplies.

The problem is that interpreting Black and white images, with no knowledge of how the pictures were taken, type of film, filters used etc. is a very imprecise art and in the end it is a judgement call for each modeller. I tend to the late Edgar's camp, where the default for RAF aircraft should always be the regulation standard without some good evidence to the contrary. Exceptions certainly did exist.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Still not convinced it could be the faded Sky Blue. More likely it would be the faded Duck Egg Blue and that tone of the colour I would follow painting my model rather.

What is 'Duck Egg Blue'? This was an unofficial description of No.1 Sky Blue.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Wurger]

Humm.. actually, you are right..

 

[Totalize]

Good summation Steve. Much appreciated. I am going to re-do the spinner in Sky when I do the tail band.

 

[stona]

I should add that there is some evidence, in the form of first hand accounts recorded long after the events, to support the idea that some units had a go at mixing their own Sky with unpredictable and usually unsatisfactory results
As with all evidence of this type, it is dependent upon human memory. That certainly does not mean that it didn't happen, but one should be cautious.
Cheers
Steve