CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
David, meet Greg. He's kind of the wandering Shoalin monk of the forum, dispensing peace and love wherever he goes.
10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate
- Thread starter Jerry W. Loper
- Start date
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David, meet Greg. He's kind of the wandering Shoalin monk of the forum, dispensing peace and love wherever he goes.
parsifal
Colonel
ah grasshopper.....you move in mysterious ways.....
Hi Greg,
First, I've been having trouble with my internet / hotmail. Did the emails get through?
One or two elements of your posts above merit a response. The sortie numbers you have quoted are for all of Bomber Command and Bomber Command only. There's around 27,000 - 28,000 night bomber sorties, about 10,000 night-fighting and intruding sorties, about 1,300 weather recce sorties, 540-odd RCM sorties and 726 daylight sorties with 2 Group in '42-'43 (they did other daylight sorties with 8 Group in '44 and '45, which are included in the 27-28k).
The hit-and-run sorties you refer to are the very small minority of daylight ops. The 27 or 28,000-odd night sorties were to the same targets as the heavies, into the teeth of defences which knew the Mossies were coming in the same way they knew the heavies were coming.
So the harm's way into which the Mosquitos were flying was just as deadly as that faced by the heavies. In fact the Mossies seem to have been active on more nights than the four-engined force, though I've not done a numerical analysis. In addition, one of the Mosquito's functions was to spoof the defenders' attention onto themselves, and away from the more vulnerable four-engine jobs.
You mention Berlin. I believe that post-March 1944, the only Bomber Command aircraft going to Berlin were Mosquitos. During 1945, the months for which I have the most straightforward data, the Mosquito force dispatched 3,900 sorties to Berlin, into the strongest flak and night-fighter defences the Reich could muster, at a cost of fourteen Mossies which failed to return.
All of which is a long way of saying that if the Mosquito loss rates were low, it wasn't due to their mission selection.
You should also be aware that the heavy force's loss rates are flattered by the final year of the war. As I discussed with dragondog here recently, the Bomber Command loss rate dropped in a similar way to that of the USAAF as sorties over Germany jumped. The nocturnal Mosquito force loss rates were always lower than the heavies, even when the Luftwaffe was at the height of its powers. All a long way of saying, please don't think the Lanc had a 2.2% loss rate across the war.
Total sortie and loss numbers from Middlebrook via Hastings, Mossie sorties from Sharp Bowyer, losses from Air Britain, Bomber Command Losses, inter alia, cumulative loss rates my calculations.
I'm not sure where the comment about durability comes from. For what it's worth, 2nd TAF Fighter-Bomber Mosquitos undertook about 18,000 sorties by day and by night. During daylight sorties in 1944, they were returning damaged slightly more than 8.4% of the time, against loss rates of 1.8%. Given what they were doing at the time, this will have been damage from flak guns.
I also don't agree that other aircraft could have undertaken the Mossie's pathfinding duties. As I've posted here before, one of the Mossie's finest hours was as an Oboe platform. Other aircraft had neither the altitude performance to get useful range from the system, nor the speed to get the crews back safely. Oboe was tried on an experimantal basis on Lancs late in 1944, with tragic results. Pathfinding was dangerous work - 8 Group took higher percentage losses on all of the Wellington, Stirling, Halifax and Lancaster than all the other groups, with the sole exception of 5 Group having a few tenths of a % higher losses on Lancs. The Mosquito did the most important work of the Bomber Force in a demonstrably better way than other aircraft.
First, I've been having trouble with my internet / hotmail. Did the emails get through?
One or two elements of your posts above merit a response. The sortie numbers you have quoted are for all of Bomber Command and Bomber Command only. There's around 27,000 - 28,000 night bomber sorties, about 10,000 night-fighting and intruding sorties, about 1,300 weather recce sorties, 540-odd RCM sorties and 726 daylight sorties with 2 Group in '42-'43 (they did other daylight sorties with 8 Group in '44 and '45, which are included in the 27-28k).
The hit-and-run sorties you refer to are the very small minority of daylight ops. The 27 or 28,000-odd night sorties were to the same targets as the heavies, into the teeth of defences which knew the Mossies were coming in the same way they knew the heavies were coming.
So the harm's way into which the Mosquitos were flying was just as deadly as that faced by the heavies. In fact the Mossies seem to have been active on more nights than the four-engined force, though I've not done a numerical analysis. In addition, one of the Mosquito's functions was to spoof the defenders' attention onto themselves, and away from the more vulnerable four-engine jobs.
You mention Berlin. I believe that post-March 1944, the only Bomber Command aircraft going to Berlin were Mosquitos. During 1945, the months for which I have the most straightforward data, the Mosquito force dispatched 3,900 sorties to Berlin, into the strongest flak and night-fighter defences the Reich could muster, at a cost of fourteen Mossies which failed to return.
All of which is a long way of saying that if the Mosquito loss rates were low, it wasn't due to their mission selection.
You should also be aware that the heavy force's loss rates are flattered by the final year of the war. As I discussed with dragondog here recently, the Bomber Command loss rate dropped in a similar way to that of the USAAF as sorties over Germany jumped. The nocturnal Mosquito force loss rates were always lower than the heavies, even when the Luftwaffe was at the height of its powers. All a long way of saying, please don't think the Lanc had a 2.2% loss rate across the war.
Total sortie and loss numbers from Middlebrook via Hastings, Mossie sorties from Sharp Bowyer, losses from Air Britain, Bomber Command Losses, inter alia, cumulative loss rates my calculations.
I'm not sure where the comment about durability comes from. For what it's worth, 2nd TAF Fighter-Bomber Mosquitos undertook about 18,000 sorties by day and by night. During daylight sorties in 1944, they were returning damaged slightly more than 8.4% of the time, against loss rates of 1.8%. Given what they were doing at the time, this will have been damage from flak guns.
I also don't agree that other aircraft could have undertaken the Mossie's pathfinding duties. As I've posted here before, one of the Mossie's finest hours was as an Oboe platform. Other aircraft had neither the altitude performance to get useful range from the system, nor the speed to get the crews back safely. Oboe was tried on an experimantal basis on Lancs late in 1944, with tragic results. Pathfinding was dangerous work - 8 Group took higher percentage losses on all of the Wellington, Stirling, Halifax and Lancaster than all the other groups, with the sole exception of 5 Group having a few tenths of a % higher losses on Lancs. The Mosquito did the most important work of the Bomber Force in a demonstrably better way than other aircraft.
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Hi Greg, I'm loving Mhuxt's last post, Sorry! I've got a couple of low pass clips taken with my crappy camera, so once I figure out how to upload video, which might take some time given we have the slowest broadband in the world, I'll put them on. Only short clips, mind.
buffnut453
Captain
Opposition unlikely? Really? Let's see...following targets flown by 105 Sqn:
Kiel
Nantes
Calais
Jena
Berlin
Eindhoven
Essen
Osnabruck
Cologne
Munster
And the above was gleaned from just a cursory glance at names that leapt out from photos or chapter titles (from the book "Mosquito Thunder") for one Mosquito squadron. I think you'll find pretty much all those targets were also attacked by USAAF B-17s and B-24s at various stages of the war...so your statement about "opposition was unlikely" seems a little suspect to me.
GregP
Major
When you are coming in at 100 feet at 350 mph in WWII, you are a bit unexpected ... unless they KNOW you are coming, when, and from where.
Don't know about you, but go to any big arishow and wait for the jet acro team if it comes in from another ariport and not the one you're on. You are always surprised about where they come from ... and they're flying slow because it's an airshow. If they were flying at the speed of anger, they'd surprise even an alert gunner.
No, I don't have the fighter stats and want them ...
Mhuxt, I'll check email ... and thanks! I'll respond.
Cobber, my real name is Quai Chang and my nickname is grasshopper ... but it's named after a drink, not an insect. Some Shaolin wisdom, "It is truly said that a man has twice as many ears and noses. The road to wisdom is long and difficult, which is why I asked you to bring sandwiches and change of clothing."
Don't worry, be happy. Put a lime in the coconut and drink 'em both up ... and bring spanners for the Merlin, and a LOT of bolts and rags.
Don't know about you, but go to any big arishow and wait for the jet acro team if it comes in from another ariport and not the one you're on. You are always surprised about where they come from ... and they're flying slow because it's an airshow. If they were flying at the speed of anger, they'd surprise even an alert gunner.
No, I don't have the fighter stats and want them ...
Mhuxt, I'll check email ... and thanks! I'll respond.
Cobber, my real name is Quai Chang and my nickname is grasshopper ... but it's named after a drink, not an insect. Some Shaolin wisdom, "It is truly said that a man has twice as many ears and noses. The road to wisdom is long and difficult, which is why I asked you to bring sandwiches and change of clothing."
Don't worry, be happy. Put a lime in the coconut and drink 'em both up ... and bring spanners for the Merlin, and a LOT of bolts and rags.
buffnut453
Captain
So they used smart tactics to hit the target. Who said war was about giving the opposition a chance to hit you? I thought it was about schwacking the other guy first.
My primary gripe was with your statement about opposition being unlikely but even the "sneak attack" assertion is suspect since, although many Mossie attacks were done at low level, several were done at medium/high altitude including attacks on Essen, Osnabruck, Berlin, Cologne and Munster (again, this just for 105 Sqn...results for other squadrons may vary). The Mossie made its name in low-level daylight attacks during 1942 but it operated at multiple levels and went into some well-defended targets well above "sneak attack" altitudes.
My primary gripe was with your statement about opposition being unlikely but even the "sneak attack" assertion is suspect since, although many Mossie attacks were done at low level, several were done at medium/high altitude including attacks on Essen, Osnabruck, Berlin, Cologne and Munster (again, this just for 105 Sqn...results for other squadrons may vary). The Mossie made its name in low-level daylight attacks during 1942 but it operated at multiple levels and went into some well-defended targets well above "sneak attack" altitudes.
GregP
Major
Isn't "schwacking" a dirty word? What does it mean? Nevermind ... all of us have probably schwacked on occasion.
I didn't say the Mosquito never faced any opposition, I said it was a a PR and interdiction aircraft par excellence. Sure it flew some hairy missions. A B-17 or Lancaster flew one every combat sortie without the protection of speed or altitude. My point is simple, if the Mossie flies missions with the same risk as the primary hitters, it assumes the same risk ... and it mostly didn't. It flew at night and low and fast and at targets that were not expected to be attacked due to remoteness (definition of interdiction?). If they WERE expected to be attacked, they didn't seem to know the Mosquitos were coming most of the time. So it had low loss rates.
Put the plane in a high-threat environement and the results will be different. Nothing wrong with what they DID at all. Great performance.
Doesn't make my top ten and won't unless I learn of more war-changing accomplishments rather than a few spectatular raids that were pulled off quite nicely ... but were not a real impact to the enemy. Breaking up a German parade is not exactly a war winning strategy, and I didn't even bring that one up myself.
Bombing a city into submission is a war winning action. Raiding Gestapo HQ isn't, but IS spectacular and makes headlines. Mostly it causes the Gestapo to move their HQ to another location, hopefully farther away from you. Large-scale destruction is what matters in war, not pinpoint raids unless rescue is needed. Then pinpoint raids are timely and necessary, but do NOT beat the enemy. They only embarass him and free a few people. Nice but not a way to win wars.
Take down a city block where HQ is located and the story changes. Take down an Army Division and it gets better. Disrupt rail traffic and you help out down the line.
Don't get me wrong ... I LIKE the odd raids, but they don't win wars, they make good headlines and help morale. Want to win the war, send Lancasters, B-17's, Halifax's,and B-24's, escorted by long range fighters of most any sort that can make the trip.
Want headlines? Send in the Mosquitos.
Spectacular, but not really a player in the big picture.
I didn't say the Mosquito never faced any opposition, I said it was a a PR and interdiction aircraft par excellence. Sure it flew some hairy missions. A B-17 or Lancaster flew one every combat sortie without the protection of speed or altitude. My point is simple, if the Mossie flies missions with the same risk as the primary hitters, it assumes the same risk ... and it mostly didn't. It flew at night and low and fast and at targets that were not expected to be attacked due to remoteness (definition of interdiction?). If they WERE expected to be attacked, they didn't seem to know the Mosquitos were coming most of the time. So it had low loss rates.
Put the plane in a high-threat environement and the results will be different. Nothing wrong with what they DID at all. Great performance.
Doesn't make my top ten and won't unless I learn of more war-changing accomplishments rather than a few spectatular raids that were pulled off quite nicely ... but were not a real impact to the enemy. Breaking up a German parade is not exactly a war winning strategy, and I didn't even bring that one up myself.
Bombing a city into submission is a war winning action. Raiding Gestapo HQ isn't, but IS spectacular and makes headlines. Mostly it causes the Gestapo to move their HQ to another location, hopefully farther away from you. Large-scale destruction is what matters in war, not pinpoint raids unless rescue is needed. Then pinpoint raids are timely and necessary, but do NOT beat the enemy. They only embarass him and free a few people. Nice but not a way to win wars.
Take down a city block where HQ is located and the story changes. Take down an Army Division and it gets better. Disrupt rail traffic and you help out down the line.
Don't get me wrong ... I LIKE the odd raids, but they don't win wars, they make good headlines and help morale. Want to win the war, send Lancasters, B-17's, Halifax's,and B-24's, escorted by long range fighters of most any sort that can make the trip.
Want headlines? Send in the Mosquitos.
Spectacular, but not really a player in the big picture.
parsifal
Colonel
shwacking....is that a technical term?
Are we confusing Pathfinders and elements of the Light Night Striking Force and other specialist Mosquito equipped units? Most Pathfinder squadrons were Lancaster equipped.
8 (Pathfinder Force) Group flew the following sorties.
Wellington 305 5.6% lost
Halifaxes 2,106 3.7% lost
Stirlings 826 4.5% lost
Lancaster 19,601 2.3% lost
Mosquito 28,215 0.4% lost
Total Heavy 22,838 2.5% lost
It seems to me that important though the Mosquito was it was not vital. I'd want it and I'd want to fly it,but "sealing the fate of nazi Germany"?
I think the bombing campaign would have carried on with much the same schedule with or without it.
Cheers
Steve
8 (Pathfinder Force) Group flew the following sorties.
Wellington 305 5.6% lost
Halifaxes 2,106 3.7% lost
Stirlings 826 4.5% lost
Lancaster 19,601 2.3% lost
Mosquito 28,215 0.4% lost
Total Heavy 22,838 2.5% lost
It seems to me that important though the Mosquito was it was not vital. I'd want it and I'd want to fly it,but "sealing the fate of nazi Germany"?
I think the bombing campaign would have carried on with much the same schedule with or without it.
Cheers
Steve
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
Would you believe that show was the absolute first time I ever heard of something called martial arts? Saw it about the same time as I picked up a book called The Big Show, and they both made a big impression. Never did get close to being a fighter pilot, and years of trying to be Kwai Chang just earned me a few free trips to Japan where the locals kicked the snot out of me. These days I watch Seventies reruns and teach. Ah, Grasshopper, time wounds all heels...
Urban dictionary meaning intoxicated or stoned out of one's tiny brain Urban Dictionary: schwacked ; so I guess "schwacking' the other guy" means dropping large amounts of liquor or weed in the hope that the adversary will become deeply happy and care-free...
THAT'S why Spitfires were carrying beer barrels! - it was a top secret campaign to get the German troops in Normandy totally sozzled by encouraging them to hold early Oktoberfests!!!Some reasons why the Mosquito was vital - apart from the bombing:
1) Once NF Mosquitos began escorting Bomber Command raids they paralysed a hitherto effective Luftwaffe night fighter force, in much the same way that the P-51 affected the day fighters.
2) How much time, energy and scarce resources did the Germans waste on anti-Mosquito measures? The Mosquito affected the development of the Bf 109, He 219 and Me 262 - Jgr 50, for example was formed specifically to counter the Mosquito, and failed; the He 219, as good as it was, couldn't hope to counter the Mosquito, even with the stripped out "hotrod" A-6 version. The only aircraft that could consistently catch Mosquitos was the Me 262. How many flak shells and other such were wasted trying to counter Mosquito raids?
3) The psychological effects of Mosquito raids were as important as the physical effects: Mosquitos could attack targets in conditions when the heavy bombers couldn't, and by the end of the 1944 Mosquitos were regularly carrying out two sorties in one night. The sheer fact that Mosquito raids could happen at any time meant lots of jittery, nervous people, because a 4,000 lb bomb could do a substantial amount of damage, regardless of whether it was dropped in a mere "nuisance" attack or not.
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I agree with your points 2 and 3. I don't agree that the Mosquitos ever paralysed the Luftwaffe nightfighter force.
A quick look at the number of claims through 1944 would tend to dispel that idea.Night fighters shot down nearly 6,000 bombers throughout the war (according to Theo Boiten,I've not added up the figures!).
The total number of victories are similar in 1943 and 1944, 1,820 and 2,335 in the west. Those are Boiten's figures,he spent seven years researching them. I compiled some from various sources which are a bit higher,but we'll go with his. In any case,that doesn't look like paralysed to me.
The final RAF victim,a Lancaster,fell to Herbert Koch of NJG 3 on the night of 25/26 April 1945.
The effectiveness of the "Nachjagd" waxed and waned throughout the war,hardly surprising in what was largely a battle of technologies. It was finally done for in late 1944 but this had nothing to do with the RAF's Mosquitoes. There was a well documented fuel shortage and an inability to train new crews. A night fighter crew requires a lot of training and with the USAAF dominating the day time skies it was simply impossible to achieve,even had the fuel been available.
It wasn't until very late in the war that the allies finally won the electronic war. As Major Werner Hoffmann,Gruppenkommandeur of I./NJG 5 recorded on the night of the Dresden raid.
"By this time,early 1945,the British completely jammed our radio,radar etc. We were practically dependent on our eyes,for all practicle purposes we were blind again."
This equipment wasn't carried by Mosquitoes either.
Cheers
Steve
A quick look at the number of claims through 1944 would tend to dispel that idea.Night fighters shot down nearly 6,000 bombers throughout the war (according to Theo Boiten,I've not added up the figures!).
The total number of victories are similar in 1943 and 1944, 1,820 and 2,335 in the west. Those are Boiten's figures,he spent seven years researching them. I compiled some from various sources which are a bit higher,but we'll go with his. In any case,that doesn't look like paralysed to me.
The final RAF victim,a Lancaster,fell to Herbert Koch of NJG 3 on the night of 25/26 April 1945.
The effectiveness of the "Nachjagd" waxed and waned throughout the war,hardly surprising in what was largely a battle of technologies. It was finally done for in late 1944 but this had nothing to do with the RAF's Mosquitoes. There was a well documented fuel shortage and an inability to train new crews. A night fighter crew requires a lot of training and with the USAAF dominating the day time skies it was simply impossible to achieve,even had the fuel been available.
It wasn't until very late in the war that the allies finally won the electronic war. As Major Werner Hoffmann,Gruppenkommandeur of I./NJG 5 recorded on the night of the Dresden raid.
"By this time,early 1945,the British completely jammed our radio,radar etc. We were practically dependent on our eyes,for all practicle purposes we were blind again."
This equipment wasn't carried by Mosquitoes either.
Cheers
Steve
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DonL
Banned
I want to add that point 2 and 3 were homemade german problems and not on the first side influenced by the Mossie.
The Mossie Killer was developed as production ready fighter since 1938 (FW 187), but the leading commanders of the LW were to stupid to produce this a/c. This issue is very controversy even on this board, but with all facts we know today, the LW could have the right answer to the Moussie since it's introduction. so all efforts later (Bf 109, He 219, Me 262) were needless and only homemade LW problems.
Anyway the Moussie is to me one of this 10 aircrafts of this thread, also to me she was not that mythical as much other person see her.
Point number two was indeed a "homemade" problem but it was still a problem and a valid point.
Point number three I believe to be valid,but it was hardly war winning. Had the Mosquitoes not carried out that role It would have made no difference to the bombing campaign or the war generally.
The thread wasn't about good or effective aircraft,both of which the Mosquito was. It was about aircraft that sealed nazi Germany's fate.
Cheers
Steve
Point number three I believe to be valid,but it was hardly war winning. Had the Mosquitoes not carried out that role It would have made no difference to the bombing campaign or the war generally.
The thread wasn't about good or effective aircraft,both of which the Mosquito was. It was about aircraft that sealed nazi Germany's fate.
Cheers
Steve
By my personal point of view, the planes that "sealed" the Axis fate were:
1st and most important, Spitfire. It clearly shown that Nazis could be beaten.
2nd – B24. It closed the N.A. Gap and made the Nazi submarine force useless.
3rd – Swordfish. The Taranto raid practically stopped the activity of the Italian Navy, on which Hitler was counting a lot, and its use against the Bismarck sealed as well the surface activity of Kriegsmarine.
4th – Lancaster. Not only for the damage inflicted, but because the thousands of 88 flak used against them could have been used very efficiently against the Red Army tanks.
5th – B17. Ditto.
6th – P 51. Many German General understood, seeing a single engine fighter over Berlin, that the war was lost.
7th – P47. To hole the engine of a train that carried ammo or fuel was probably more important than trying, unsuccesfully, to destroy the factories.
8th – Typhoon. Ditto.
9th – Mosquito. To know that your enemy is capable to violate your airspace any time and practically with impunity is a nightmare for the responsible the air defence.
10th – C47 – Without logistic, no Army can fight.
All the others Allied planes, say Tempests, P38s (that I love...) etc. were "extremely useful", but they did not seal the Axis fate.....
1st and most important, Spitfire. It clearly shown that Nazis could be beaten.
2nd – B24. It closed the N.A. Gap and made the Nazi submarine force useless.
3rd – Swordfish. The Taranto raid practically stopped the activity of the Italian Navy, on which Hitler was counting a lot, and its use against the Bismarck sealed as well the surface activity of Kriegsmarine.
4th – Lancaster. Not only for the damage inflicted, but because the thousands of 88 flak used against them could have been used very efficiently against the Red Army tanks.
5th – B17. Ditto.
6th – P 51. Many German General understood, seeing a single engine fighter over Berlin, that the war was lost.
7th – P47. To hole the engine of a train that carried ammo or fuel was probably more important than trying, unsuccesfully, to destroy the factories.
8th – Typhoon. Ditto.
9th – Mosquito. To know that your enemy is capable to violate your airspace any time and practically with impunity is a nightmare for the responsible the air defence.
10th – C47 – Without logistic, no Army can fight.
All the others Allied planes, say Tempests, P38s (that I love...) etc. were "extremely useful", but they did not seal the Axis fate.....
GregP
Major
Hi Elmas,
A nice, well thought out list, concisely presented. That's what the thread is all about. Thanks.
A nice, well thought out list, concisely presented. That's what the thread is all about. Thanks.
parsifal
Colonel
Hi Steve
Could you clarify this please, by my schoolyard arithmatic, the Mosquito flew more pathfinder sorties than everyone else combined? Is there a mis-transcription here? What is the source for your claim so i can verify for myself?
