Yeah I forgot about The Med and Operation Torch. I think they were used in Norway as well.
Still the SBD was not as decisive of a factor in the war against Germany as it was in the Pacific.
10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate
- Thread starter Jerry W. Loper
- Start date
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Yeah I forgot about The Med and Operation Torch. I think they were used in Norway as well.
Still the SBD was not as decisive of a factor in the war against Germany as it was in the Pacific.
Yes,but far more Lancasters were used in that role.
I hate to say it,but much as I love the Mosquito it would struggle to get on my list of the ten that sealed the fate of nazi Germany
It was still an important aeroplane and filled several roles better than its contemporaries.
So Kobber I won't be coming around to fire bomb your house
Cheers
Steve
No, Steve, but I might come round and fire bomb yours
Don't agree. Mossie definitely has to be in the list. Serving as a bomber, fighter bomber, pathfinder, photo recon, fast transport, anti-shipping strike aircraft, how could it not? Highly influential on German planning, they even built their own homage to it. Look at the raids Mossies carried out. Big impact.
Don't agree. Mossie definitely has to be in the list. Serving as a bomber, fighter bomber, pathfinder, photo recon, fast transport, anti-shipping strike aircraft, how could it not? Highly influential on German planning, they even built their own homage to it. Look at the raids Mossies carried out. Big impact.
It certainly caused much consternation for the Luftwaffe. Anything you can't defend against was bound to!
Those raids,big impact,yes. Strategically of war winning importance? I have my doubts.
I cheated in my top ten by having the P-51 in places 3-10,despite finding it an ugly s.o.b.
I'm prepared to compromise and squeeze the good old wooden wonder in at 10 but I don't think it was a war winning machine. Many of the roles you mentioned could be,and were, carried out by other types,just not always as well!
Cheers
Steve
GregP
Major
Hi Steve, I agree. Though I like the Mosquito a lot, it wasn't a war winner. It was very good at sneaking around and hitting a few isolated targets, but would not do as well against an enemy who knew it was coming in large numbers, knew the course, height, and speed ... and was waiting for it, like they waited for the streams of heavy bombers.
Its speed was good if the enemy was cruising at or below its height at, say, 200 mph, and was unaware. But if the enemy was above the Mosquito and was up to combat speed and wating for it, then the Mosquito wasn't fast enough to remain "invulnerable" and was not renowned for taking a lot of battle damage. It found its niche and performed well there, but wasn't a major factor anywhere in damaging the war making capability of the Reich. It was a hit-and-run or fast interdiction specialist that was one of the best at those missions.
The Mosquito flew 39,487 sorties and had 229 losses (0.6%). That is very good, but the Mosquito was also not a main bomber type and the mission slection undoubtedly affected the loss rate. By way of jusification for that statement, in RAF Bomber Command service, the B-17 Flying Fortress flew 1,517 missions with 7 losses (0.5%). The B-24 Liberator flew 615 sorties with 3 losses (0.5%). Both were not used as main bombing types but were flying search and rescue, maritime recon, and a variety of lesser-risk missions. Surely the mission selection helped the low loss rate. Does anyone out there think the B-17 or B-24 loss rates would remain that low if it began bombing Berlin?
In real life, they didn't stay that low when going into harm's way. Most of the British bombers had a loss rate of 2.0% to 3.7%. The immortal Lancaster's rate was 2.2%, and that is pretty good for a primary heavy bomber. If the Mosquito had been reassigned to be a primary bomber, its loss rate would have jumped, too.
It doesn't make my top ten list. That doesn't mean it wasn't good and is not an insult to Mossie fans. It just means my I take into account the contribution of the aircrfaft in making the war shorter. Rescuing prisoners is wonderful and necessary, but doesn't win the war ... it resuces prisoners. Pathfinfers were necessary, but many other planes also performed that mission. The Mossie didn't need to use speed for pathfinding, so it was able to do the job, but not necessary to the job. It DID the job, but so did many other aircraft, too.
Its necessary roles, where its characteristics made it the only logical choice, were reconaissance and interdiction missions, and the Mosquito was excellent at these roles. Almost all other roles, while successful, could have been done by other planes just as easily. Was it versatile? You bet, probably the Mosquito and Ju 88 were the most versatile aircraft of WWII. If versatility is the main required quality, then the Mosquito would be right up there near the top. If cumulative damage to the other side is the main required quality, many other types win out.
They only made 4,850 armed Mosquitos. The other 2,927 were unarmed and were thus bombers or recon planes.
Its speed was good if the enemy was cruising at or below its height at, say, 200 mph, and was unaware. But if the enemy was above the Mosquito and was up to combat speed and wating for it, then the Mosquito wasn't fast enough to remain "invulnerable" and was not renowned for taking a lot of battle damage. It found its niche and performed well there, but wasn't a major factor anywhere in damaging the war making capability of the Reich. It was a hit-and-run or fast interdiction specialist that was one of the best at those missions.
The Mosquito flew 39,487 sorties and had 229 losses (0.6%). That is very good, but the Mosquito was also not a main bomber type and the mission slection undoubtedly affected the loss rate. By way of jusification for that statement, in RAF Bomber Command service, the B-17 Flying Fortress flew 1,517 missions with 7 losses (0.5%). The B-24 Liberator flew 615 sorties with 3 losses (0.5%). Both were not used as main bombing types but were flying search and rescue, maritime recon, and a variety of lesser-risk missions. Surely the mission selection helped the low loss rate. Does anyone out there think the B-17 or B-24 loss rates would remain that low if it began bombing Berlin?
In real life, they didn't stay that low when going into harm's way. Most of the British bombers had a loss rate of 2.0% to 3.7%. The immortal Lancaster's rate was 2.2%, and that is pretty good for a primary heavy bomber. If the Mosquito had been reassigned to be a primary bomber, its loss rate would have jumped, too.
It doesn't make my top ten list. That doesn't mean it wasn't good and is not an insult to Mossie fans. It just means my I take into account the contribution of the aircrfaft in making the war shorter. Rescuing prisoners is wonderful and necessary, but doesn't win the war ... it resuces prisoners. Pathfinfers were necessary, but many other planes also performed that mission. The Mossie didn't need to use speed for pathfinding, so it was able to do the job, but not necessary to the job. It DID the job, but so did many other aircraft, too.
Its necessary roles, where its characteristics made it the only logical choice, were reconaissance and interdiction missions, and the Mosquito was excellent at these roles. Almost all other roles, while successful, could have been done by other planes just as easily. Was it versatile? You bet, probably the Mosquito and Ju 88 were the most versatile aircraft of WWII. If versatility is the main required quality, then the Mosquito would be right up there near the top. If cumulative damage to the other side is the main required quality, many other types win out.
They only made 4,850 armed Mosquitos. The other 2,927 were unarmed and were thus bombers or recon planes.
Mossie besides the effects it was famous was a first class LR PR plane, making it possible to have good coverage beyond the range of PR Spits.
NF Mossies had also indirect impact on D-Day by weakening LW bomber force during the Steinbock campaign in early 44 besides the direct effect by hinderind the LW bombing.
CC Mossies hindered German maritime trade.
LNSF Mossies many times stroke more difficult targets than the Main Force to lure LW night fighters away from the Main Force, e.g. Berlin was a good target for those diversional attacks.
Juha
NF Mossies had also indirect impact on D-Day by weakening LW bomber force during the Steinbock campaign in early 44 besides the direct effect by hinderind the LW bombing.
CC Mossies hindered German maritime trade.
LNSF Mossies many times stroke more difficult targets than the Main Force to lure LW night fighters away from the Main Force, e.g. Berlin was a good target for those diversional attacks.
Juha
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FlakDancer
Airman
- 23
- Mar 22, 2013
I am very lucky. If all goes as they say it will, next month I will get to see the rebuilt Mossie from New Zealand fly. If my work allows me to be there I'll take some photos. Don't know where it fits in the top ten, but I can't wait to see that!
Glider
Captain
Just an observation, no one aircraft was a war winner. You can have all the P51, B17, Spit, Mossie whatever you want but without those often overlooked coastal command aircraft they wouldn't get to the UK.
What is needed is a combination of aircraft there is no one winner
What is needed is a combination of aircraft there is no one winner
GregP
Major
Very good point, Glider, no one aircraft could do it all. It WAS a cooperative effort.
I love the planes, all of them, and hate to take anything like a stance on "better." They're all magic carpets to me, even after years of being a pilot. If I had a chance, I'd go see the Mosquito fly, too, even if it was inconvenient.
I only wish we had one locally that I could see fly once in awhile.
I love the planes, all of them, and hate to take anything like a stance on "better." They're all magic carpets to me, even after years of being a pilot. If I had a chance, I'd go see the Mosquito fly, too, even if it was inconvenient.
I only wish we had one locally that I could see fly once in awhile.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Under Bomber Command only. This doesn't count activities with Fighter Command, Coastal Command or service in the Mediterranean or Pacific.
You're right, but also inverse. Mosquitos were generally given missions and mission profiles that were MORE likely to see opposition.
Not sure where you're getting your figures, by the RAF history lists 18 losses in 1340 missions in the ETO for the B-17 in Bomber Command service - a 1.3% loss rate - and the B-24 had much more than three losses with the RAF. 178 squadron alone lost at least 17 B-24s operating out of Italy, incluing nine in the space of two weeks.
Which never would have happened, because it wasn't designed as a 'primary' bomber. It was a light/fast bomber and was operated as such.
Bombload doesn't equal armed?
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
What navel-gazing, one eyed prick questioned the divinity of the mighty Mossie? Bastard!
Wait a minute - that was me...
Wait a minute - that was me...
GregP
Major
Got my figures from a bomber command site. If you have figures from fighter command, maybe you could post the link or book by title and author. Mosquitos were given mostly sneak interdiction mission where opposition was unlikely. That's what they were GOOD at, so why not use the assets properly?
Bombload is bombload, you can't defend yourself with bomb load. You can only drop it on someone or something.
Bombload is bombload, you can't defend yourself with bomb load. You can only drop it on someone or something.
Nope, sorry, guys; not convinced. Mosquito is definitely in my top ten.
Here's some quotes from the intro of Mosquito by C. Martin Sharp and Michael J.F. Bowyer; its not just a list of things the Mossie could do; it'd be far greater, but what impact its activities had on the Germans.
"Mosquitoes were chosen to carry Oboe the most important pathfinding equipment, and marked for Bomber Command's heaviest and most important attacks, by day and night. They led the tremendous assault on enemy rail communications prior to D-Day, made possible precision attacks on V-weapons sites and depots and, in the hands of some of the RAF's most skilled crews, marked the smallest of targets almost from ground level to six miles up."
"As a nightfighter it took over the defence of Britain in 1943 and, fitted with remarkable British-invented radar, virtually prevented night intrusion over Britain. Mosquitoes had claimed 659 enemy aircraft by the end of November 1944, and brought down over five hundred flying-bombs in the first and worst sixty-one nights of this fresh scourge."
"They laid maines in enemy waters and blocked the Keil Canal."
"It photographed and surveyed the whole of Europe, almost to the borders of Russia."
"Mosquitoes discovered the existence of the V-weapons, their launching sites and associated depots."
"A Mosquito found the Tirpitz in a Norweigian fjord..."
"The weather was reported ahead of every major RAF and USAAF attack and when the Americans formed their own meteorological unit they chose Mosquitoes..."
This from British Aircraft of World War Two by David Mondey; not especially crucial to the war effort, but at that time (late 1942 - early 1943) the Allies did not have an aircraft that could do these things.
"...these two squadrons [105 and 139] were to cause a great deal of heartache for the Germans as they ranged far and wide. Even before that date, 105 Sqn had hit headlines with a daring low-level attack on the Gestapo headquarters in Oslo."
"They were also to cause considerable annoyance to two of Germany's VIPs, when, on 31 January 1943, 105 Sqn became the first Mosquito unit to attack Berlin, successfully accomplishing the task of scattering a parade that was to be addressed by Hermann Goering, head of the Luftwaffe."
"When on the same day, no 139 Sqn gave precisely the same treatment to a parade to be brain washed by Dr Goebbels, it was probably true to say that No.2 Group's activities were becoming extremely embarrasing."
Already have and its definitely in mine (he says, feeling pretty smug about now - look, the whole country got some mileage out of it, so I'm gonna too. Forget Middle Earth, New Zealand is now Home of the de Havilland Mosquito Restoration; Number Two is definitely on its way)
Here's some quotes from the intro of Mosquito by C. Martin Sharp and Michael J.F. Bowyer; its not just a list of things the Mossie could do; it'd be far greater, but what impact its activities had on the Germans.
"Mosquitoes were chosen to carry Oboe the most important pathfinding equipment, and marked for Bomber Command's heaviest and most important attacks, by day and night. They led the tremendous assault on enemy rail communications prior to D-Day, made possible precision attacks on V-weapons sites and depots and, in the hands of some of the RAF's most skilled crews, marked the smallest of targets almost from ground level to six miles up."
"As a nightfighter it took over the defence of Britain in 1943 and, fitted with remarkable British-invented radar, virtually prevented night intrusion over Britain. Mosquitoes had claimed 659 enemy aircraft by the end of November 1944, and brought down over five hundred flying-bombs in the first and worst sixty-one nights of this fresh scourge."
"They laid maines in enemy waters and blocked the Keil Canal."
"It photographed and surveyed the whole of Europe, almost to the borders of Russia."
"Mosquitoes discovered the existence of the V-weapons, their launching sites and associated depots."
"A Mosquito found the Tirpitz in a Norweigian fjord..."
"The weather was reported ahead of every major RAF and USAAF attack and when the Americans formed their own meteorological unit they chose Mosquitoes..."
This from British Aircraft of World War Two by David Mondey; not especially crucial to the war effort, but at that time (late 1942 - early 1943) the Allies did not have an aircraft that could do these things.
"...these two squadrons [105 and 139] were to cause a great deal of heartache for the Germans as they ranged far and wide. Even before that date, 105 Sqn had hit headlines with a daring low-level attack on the Gestapo headquarters in Oslo."
"They were also to cause considerable annoyance to two of Germany's VIPs, when, on 31 January 1943, 105 Sqn became the first Mosquito unit to attack Berlin, successfully accomplishing the task of scattering a parade that was to be addressed by Hermann Goering, head of the Luftwaffe."
"When on the same day, no 139 Sqn gave precisely the same treatment to a parade to be brain washed by Dr Goebbels, it was probably true to say that No.2 Group's activities were becoming extremely embarrasing."
Already have and its definitely in mine (he says, feeling pretty smug about now - look, the whole country got some mileage out of it, so I'm gonna too. Forget Middle Earth, New Zealand is now Home of the de Havilland Mosquito Restoration; Number Two is definitely on its way)
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parsifal
Colonel
People who say they are not impressed with the Mossie have obviously not been up close an personal with them. Ive only ever seen one fly, but that was enough for me.
GregP
Major
I AM impressed with it, but not as a major warplane. As an interdiction or PR platform, yes. Even as a night fighter, yes. None of the preceeding wins wars ... it is a thorn in the side of the target, but not a crippling blow.
I don't have any issue with including it on anyone else's list and won't argue it much if at all, enjoy. It doesn't make mine, but I'm a big fan of the type nevertheless. Yes, we operated a few Mosquitos. Britain operated a few P-38's, too. Neither country adopted the other's plane as primary anything. They operated a few becasue we were trading assets among ourselves. If these assets had not been avilable, we'd have done it with our own planes, as would have the Brits. Nothing implied or intended there. If you don't have one option you want, you develop other options.
Personally, I'd love to work on one and fly in it.
I don't have any issue with including it on anyone else's list and won't argue it much if at all, enjoy. It doesn't make mine, but I'm a big fan of the type nevertheless. Yes, we operated a few Mosquitos. Britain operated a few P-38's, too. Neither country adopted the other's plane as primary anything. They operated a few becasue we were trading assets among ourselves. If these assets had not been avilable, we'd have done it with our own planes, as would have the Brits. Nothing implied or intended there. If you don't have one option you want, you develop other options.
Personally, I'd love to work on one and fly in it.
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David Scott
Recruit
First "real" post so be gentle...
- DeHavilland Mosquito. Probably one of the single most important aircraft in the European Theatre. Could carry almost the same bomb load as the B17 further, faster and without need of escort or even defensive weapons. Low level, high level bomber. Anti-shipping, night fighter. The only thing that it didn't excel in was dog fighting. Not to mention it could do this while evading radar.
- Spitfire/Hurricane. Without the BoB "twins" (and radar) who knows how long the war would have lasted. It might have been over. As a side note, the Spitfire (next to the Jaguar E-Type) is the most beautiful thing created by man.
- B17/Lancaster. These two heavies gave the Allies the one two punch that brought the Nazi industrial complex down.
- Mustang. Being able to escort bombers all the way to Berlin and then strafe airfields on the way back. Enough said.
- Dakota. As important as the jeep and Liberty ships.
- Catalina/Sunderland. Invaluable for keeping the supply routes open during the battle of the Atlantic.
- Typhoon/Thunderbolt. Two different ways to skin a cat. Both devastatingly effective.
Honourable mentions: Beaufighter, Lightning, Liberator and Harvard.
- DeHavilland Mosquito. Probably one of the single most important aircraft in the European Theatre. Could carry almost the same bomb load as the B17 further, faster and without need of escort or even defensive weapons. Low level, high level bomber. Anti-shipping, night fighter. The only thing that it didn't excel in was dog fighting. Not to mention it could do this while evading radar.
- Spitfire/Hurricane. Without the BoB "twins" (and radar) who knows how long the war would have lasted. It might have been over. As a side note, the Spitfire (next to the Jaguar E-Type) is the most beautiful thing created by man.
- B17/Lancaster. These two heavies gave the Allies the one two punch that brought the Nazi industrial complex down.
- Mustang. Being able to escort bombers all the way to Berlin and then strafe airfields on the way back. Enough said.
- Dakota. As important as the jeep and Liberty ships.
- Catalina/Sunderland. Invaluable for keeping the supply routes open during the battle of the Atlantic.
- Typhoon/Thunderbolt. Two different ways to skin a cat. Both devastatingly effective.
Honourable mentions: Beaufighter, Lightning, Liberator and Harvard.
CobberKane
Banned
- 706
- Apr 4, 2012
David, you are never going to cut the mustard in this forum with courtesy and considered opinions. Eat some concrete and harden up!
Re the mighty Mossie, for me it hovers on the edge of my top ten most crucial. If the question had been best ten without qualification it would be in my top three. But bear in mind all, leaving it out of the top ten MOST CRUCIAL does not need to be denial of the the Mossies undoubted excellence relative to pretty much any other WWII aircraft you could name
Re the mighty Mossie, for me it hovers on the edge of my top ten most crucial. If the question had been best ten without qualification it would be in my top three. But bear in mind all, leaving it out of the top ten MOST CRUCIAL does not need to be denial of the the Mossies undoubted excellence relative to pretty much any other WWII aircraft you could name
GregP
Major
I agree with everything except the "one of the single most important" part. Love the Mosquito, but it wasn't one of the single most important in the many books I have read. If the war had been a Hollywood movie, the Mosquito was a shoo-in for "best supporting actor," but would never be the headliner. Important, yes. Best? ... no.
The slugging went to other types and Mosquito did what it did best, sneak in and bomb a target at low level and high speed. Keeps 'em jumping and wondering what is next. But it doesn't win the war. Helps out a lot? Yes.
Oh yeah, courtesy helps out a lot ... prevents flaming wars, which get the attention of moderators. When they send you a "like," it's fine. When they tell you to be nice, it means you're on a short leash and close to being banned. If you're nice to start with, they don't need to send you nasty messages ... which is, in itself, a nice thing.
We can disagree without getting ugly. It's the way constructive discourse happens all the time. I may not agree with you, but you have the right to your opinion regardless. Me too.
The war is 70+ years past, so how much difference can it make if one of us is right or wrong? Might as well be friendly about it and not get locked out of the discussion for having a 10-year old temper.
The slugging went to other types and Mosquito did what it did best, sneak in and bomb a target at low level and high speed. Keeps 'em jumping and wondering what is next. But it doesn't win the war. Helps out a lot? Yes.
Oh yeah, courtesy helps out a lot ... prevents flaming wars, which get the attention of moderators. When they send you a "like," it's fine. When they tell you to be nice, it means you're on a short leash and close to being banned. If you're nice to start with, they don't need to send you nasty messages ... which is, in itself, a nice thing.
We can disagree without getting ugly. It's the way constructive discourse happens all the time. I may not agree with you, but you have the right to your opinion regardless. Me too.
The war is 70+ years past, so how much difference can it make if one of us is right or wrong? Might as well be friendly about it and not get locked out of the discussion for having a 10-year old temper.
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GregP
Major
Hey Nuuumannn, get some video and post it, OK? Altogether a great bird and worth the watch.
