10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

[DonL]

Ähm how many A-Bombs were available 1945?
To my sources 3-5 till the end of the year. (inclusive the two for Japan)

Germany could answer with nerve gas? Perhaps.

No not perhaps the germans had 12000 tons of war workable tabun

But the Allies also could trow nerve gas in the German cities trough bombing.

Yes indeed and this is an irrepressible war with millions of civil casualty on both sides

 

[stona]

How could the allies have thrown nerve agents at German cities through bombing? They didn't have them until after the war.

The British and Americans split about 30,000 tons between them in 1945. The Soviets captured an entire factory and its stocks.

Aren't we getting a bit off topic

Cheers
Steve

 

[DonL]

Stona I have not the knowledge about allied B weapons but to my sources they had a large stockpile of C-weapons inclusive bombs.

Ok it is realy off topic but the A-Bomb on Germany is something what comes up pretty regular.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I'm not saying that the USAAF should not have choose the P-51 (the proposed is that it was not developed). As for the P-51 being "crucial", crucial is one thing, while absolutely crucial is other.

This is not a what if thread. The P-51 was developed.

So how was the P-51 not one of the 10 most crucial aircraft to thr defeat of Germany? In the context of what actually took place in the war, how was the P-51 not? What made the P-38 or P-47 more crucial? How was the Spitfire, Hurricane or Yak more crucial?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

DonL, if Germany was to be nuked, it would not be with one bomb per time like Japan, it would probably be by several simultaneously.

How do you figure?

 

[stona]

Stona I have not the knowledge about allied B weapons but to my sources they had a large stockpile of C-weapons inclusive bombs.

Ok it is realy off topic but the A-Bomb on Germany is something what comes up pretty regular.

Germany had substantial stocks of nerve agents and the means to deploy them. None of the allies had either.

That's why I was surprised by the suggestion that the allies could have delivered such agents to German cities !

I don't believe a nuclear weapon would have been used against Germany in any realistic scenario. No plans existed for such an eventuality. By the time the bombs became available the war in Europe was over Stimson didn't even brief Trumann about the bomb until a meeting at the White House on 25th April 1945,just five days before Hitler would shoot himself. Trumann established the so called "Interim Committee" to advise him on a possible use of the weapon and this reported on Ist June 1945. The decision,in principle,to use the bomb was taken on 18th June 1945. Trumann seems to have taken the decision to use the bomb against Japan,as opposed to some kind of demonstration,on 2nd July 1945. The consent of the British was sought and this was given on 4th July 1945.
None of this has anything to do with the war against Germany which was already over.

There is a tendency in many threads for people to use hindsight and to get their timelines a bit confused

Cheers

Steve

 

[Jenisch]

How do you figure?

Logic.

 

[michaelmaltby]

All this fighting, all this fighting ... you see ... that's why the P-51 is NOT my favorite WW2 fighter .... people always get into fights about how good it is! Give me Mr. Fat Reliable from Republic with air con and a cigar lighter in the dash. Built for comfort ....

MM

 

[michaelmaltby]

"Logic..."

Of course ... we all know it takes more to impress a German than a Japanese combattant ...

 

[Readie]

All this fighting, all this fighting ... you see ... that's why the P-51 is NOT my favorite WW2 fighter .... people always get into fights about how good it is! Give me Mr. Fat Reliable from Republic with air con and a cigar lighter in the dash. Built for comfort ....

MM

Having seen the footage of what a P47 could take and dish out...I'm inclined to agree with you Michael.
If only it had a Merlin....

 

[Glider]

This is not a what if thread. The P-51 was developed.

So how was the P-51 not one of the 10 most crucial aircraft to thr defeat of Germany? In the context of what actually took place in the war, how was the P-51 not? What made the P-38 or P-47 more crucial? How was the Spitfire, Hurricane or Yak more crucial?

I have to agree the P51 was one of the most critical aircraft. The P38 at the time didn't have the range, it had problems at altitude in Europe and I have never heard of the Germans being overawed by its combat performance.
The P47 was better but it's my understanding that it lacked range when the range was needed. I could be wrong here as my knowledge of the P47 is limited.
That said like it or not the P51 is the aircraft that was used and it was the P51 that ensured the USA bombing was a success. For this alone the P51 deserves its place in the top 10

 

[Readie]

I
That said like it or not the P51 is the aircraft that was used and it was the P51 that ensured the USA bombing was a success. For this alone the P51 deserves its place in the top 10

You could also add destroying the LW in the process.
The rhubarb raids by P47's, Spitfires, Typhoon's etc played a vital role too.
I don't think any one plane can be singled out as 'the most important'...they all did their job.
Cheers
John

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Logic.

Were they going to make nukes magically appear? You can only drop the number you have.

What logic is there to say the Germans would have multiple bombs dropped simultaneously on them. I don't see logic, I see more what if speculation.

 

[meatloaf109]

Here is mine.
In no particular order,
Spitfire,
P-51,
Il-2,
Lancaster,
B-17,
C-47,
B-24,
Yak-7,
Typhoon,
Mosquito.

 

[bob44]

No I do not think the Allies would have used the A bomb in Germany if available. What would you target? Unlike Japan, where it was expected the civian population would combat the Allies if Japan was invaded, I think most people in Germany just wanted the war to be over.
The P51 was certainly one of the important aircrafts in the war. As were many others.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

All this fighting, all this fighting ... you see ... that's why the P-51 is NOT my favorite WW2 fighter .... people always get into fights about how good it is! Give me Mr. Fat Reliable from Republic with air con and a cigar lighter in the dash. Built for comfort ....

MM

The P-51 is not my favorite, nor would I say it was the best at everything. For the reasons you just state, I agree the Mustang is overrated. However the P-51 as it was used makes it one of top fighters in the defeat of Germany. That is fact, like it or not.

 

[Jenisch]

Were they going to make nukes magically appear? You can only drop the number you have.

What logic is there to say the Germans would have multiple bombs dropped simultaneously on them. I don't see logic, I see more what if speculation.

If Germany was to be nuked in order to make it surrender, there would have to be no mercy. The US would have to wait until gather a good number of nukes. I wrote earlier that the cost benefit of such attacks would have to be considerated, however.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If Germany was to be nuked in order to make it surrender, there would have to be no mercy. The US would have to wait until gather a good number of nukes. I wrote earlier that the cost benefit of such attacks would have to be considerated, however.

Pure speculation, save that for what if threads.

Sorry there is no logic as you say in that. The Germans are not fanatical suicidal people that would need the whole country nuked to make them surrender.

The theoretical nuking of Germany has anything to do with the 10 planes that were most crucial to the defeat of Germany.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... P-51 as it was used makes it one of top fighters in the defeat of Germany"

No question. Goering said it best in "Springtime in Berlin" - the musical.

MM

 

[drgondog]

The P-47N was a great airplane that at +30,000 was much better than a P-51 (any model), but by the time that was realized there were countless P-51's and the war was seemingly headed toward an end.

The N had Slightly better performance than the P-51B-15 @75" WEP with racks and full internal load at 30,000 feet and slightly inferior performance (climb, speed, turn) to the P-51H with racks, full internal load @90" WI WEP at 30,000 feet but the 51H outclimbed it out ran it and out turned it from SL all the way up to 29,000 feet.


If there were such a thing as Allies 46' (like the Luft 46) things would have been different for the P-51 in that environment. Yet it was not that the P-51 was ever massively better than any other plane of its era but how quickly and effectively the Allies could match ratios of 10-1 or more Mustangs against the Germans on a consistent and ongoing basis.

It has been said more than a couple of times that a.) there were never any simultanous examples where all the ETO P-51s were in the same airspace as all of LuftFlotte Reich's single engine fighters...If such was possible, to cram 14 Mustang FG's with an operational deployment per mission of 48 per group until Fall 1944 when often 60+ would fly an A and B mission. LF Reich had between 450 to 525 operational S/E fighters in Germany with another 150 to 200 in France and Belgium between Jan 1, 1944 and August, 1944.

To Look at Jan 1, 1944 - 354FG ~ avg 35-40 per mission, LFR ~ 400 S/E and 130 T/E day fighters
February 20 (Big Week) - 354 and 357FG ~ avg 40 per mission, LFR ~ 450 S/E and 120 T/E day fighters
April 30 ~ 354 and 363 (9AF), 4, 352, 355, 357 FG ~ 40-45 per mission per Group, LFR ~ 450-500 S/E day fighters, 80 T/E.
May 30 ~ 354, 4, 339, 352, 355, 357, 359, 361 FG ~ 45 sorties per Group, LFR ~ 500 S/E and 60 T/E (deployed east of Berlin and Leipzig)

What this means is that by D-Day the average number of P-51B's, to escort Three 8th AF Bomb Divisions, comprised of an average of 10 BG's per Division - each BG flying an average of 40 B-17/B-24s per Group - was 2-3 FG's of 45 Mustangs each to escort 400 B-17's (or B-24's) along a thirty mile string to the break point (defined as the point where some bomb wings set a new course different from the others to attack a different target - therebye further diluting the escorts.

Net - to 'get 10:1 Mustang to LW ratio', the LW has to attack that airspace basically covered by a single P-51 Group. The math says that the standard LW attack was a flight of four attacking a 5 mile region covered by 45 Mustangs.

Even so, the Mustang escorts would deploy perhaps one flight to chase them - reducing the ratio to 1:1.

Conversely, given scenarios like March 29, June 20, July 7, November 26 - the LW would direct 6 to 8 Gruppe's to attack that same size volume when they detected light escort or a Bomb Wing far off course. Then the ratio reverses to as much as 4:1 in favor of LW day fighter to Mustang.



When the crucial battles were fought and won by the Mustang, only the P-51B