10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

[parsifal]

Mosquitoes had a tangible effect on German nightfighters, as demonstrated by the extremely high attrition rates they suffered to non-combat relatedf causes after the introduction of Mosquito "escorts" and intruder operations. Ive read many times about the extreme stresses places on the nightfighter crews by the fear of Mosquito presence. It forced them to adopt dangerous expedients, like flying low, that at time opushed their attrition rates (to alol causes) to above sustainable levels.

Arguing that Mosquitoes did not have an effect on German defences in the Night Bombig camapign is a nonsense

 

[DonL]

Crew training, fuel stocks and partly radar shortcomings are much more valid then the NF Moussie.
Also the Ju 88 G-1 and G-6 are absolutely equal to the performance of the NF Moussie.

Every late war NF Beaufighter had the same effect then the NF Moussie.
Nonsense is to overestimate the effect of the NF Moussie.

 

[mhuxt]

Crew training, fuel stocks and partly radar shortcomings are much more valid then the NF Moussie.
Also the Ju 88 G-1 and G-6 are absolutely equal to the performance of the NF Moussie.

Every late war NF Beaufighter had the same effect then the NF Moussie.
Nonsense is to overestimate the effect of the NF Moussie.

The only late-war Beaufighters I'm aware of were in Coastal Command, the Med and Asia. 100 Group stopped using them over the Reich in December '43.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Mossie Killer was developed as production ready fighter since 1938 (FW 187)

I don't understand how the Germans could build a Mossie killer before the Mossie had even been built! Nevertheless, valid points, DonL. I also don't believe anyone is over emphasising the abilities of the Mosquito; it's hard not to sit up and take notice when its performance and versatility was as good as it was at that time. This is the key to things; the Mosquito was considered to be far more of a revelation when it was built than how we view it today because of what it offered. These days, a twin engined unarmed bomber with high performance is not such a big thing, but then, that was food for thought and intolerable for many in the RAF Air Staff.

Excitement about its versatility came from the sheer number of roles and how well it could do those jobs compared to other types, and yes, the LW had the Ju 88, but the Mossie could out perform the Ju 88 in almost every respect (Ju 88G-7b max speed 389 mph, ceiling 32,810 ft, climb 500 ft/min, Mossie NF.XV max speed 412 mph, ceiling 43,000 ft, climb 3,500 ft/min - this is not to denigrate the Ju 88, terrific aeroplane), and although later Ju 88 NF performance was equal and sometimes better than the early NF Mossies, the Mossies were doing that performance long before the Ju 88 was.

This is the point; when it entered service, no twin engined fighter or bomber had the outright performance of the type (service aircraft, not prototypes), nor could any other type do the wide range of tasks the Mossie could in the same airframe.

I guess you have to forgive us for expressing how good the Mossie was - and it was no myth that it was that good; its performance and capabilities had no equal in any other aircraft of its size/weight class. Its war record speaks for itself also. I don't think anyone expresses any exaggeration about the Mosquito's performance and abilities because there is no need to, unlike some German types that are regularly discussed here.

 

[FlakDancer]

The FW 187 was a very interesting design that never seemed fully realized. One of the complaints the LW had against it was that it lacked defensive armor. The adding of this weight surely would have impacted its performance (echoes of the P-39 here). The world at that time was moving toward the single engine fighter and unless it was very sturdy airframe capable of a number of roles such as a Mossie or Bf-110 it probably would have been a waste of time. After all, Tank needed to busy himself with the FW-190 and so forth.

 

[DonL]

I have written enough facts and presented enough primary sources in this forum about the FW 187.
Fact is, that the FW 187 would be able to intercept the Moussie in every role and it was not a prototype it was developed till a production series with a preproduction series that was built.

 

[buffnut453]

Careful, FlakDancer, there are some who frequent this forum who'd view your comments about the Fw187 as sacrilege, blasphemous and potentially treasonable worthy of the death sentence.

Cue long rambling discussion about how the Fw187 was the Luftwaffe's missed opportunity to dominate the skies over Britain, the Soviet Union, America, anywhere....

 

[FlakDancer]

Thank you buffnutt543. Not here to step on landmines. It would have been a fantastic plane, but since I was not born yet, I had no say in the matter.

 

[DonL]

Careful, FlakDancer, there are some who frequent this forum who'd view your comments about the Fw187 as sacrilege, blasphemous and potentially treasonable worthy of the death sentence.

Cue long rambling discussion about how the Fw187 was the Luftwaffe's missed opportunity to dominate the skies over Britain, the Soviet Union, America, anywhere....

Interesting reply, but please show me where I have written such things.
There is a search function in this forum and we have had a lot of threads about the FW 187 and there are many presented facts and primary sources.
It is boring to repeat them in every thread.
Anyway I have my personal opinion about the FW 187 compare to the Moussie and I have delivered substained facts for this opinion.

 

[buffnut453]

I wasn't referring to you specifically DonL. There are several Fw187 apologists/proponents on this forum. I think you posted your message just before mine so I didn't see yours before mine hit the server (note the posting times, only a minute apart which is, essentially, simultaneous given the timing accuracy of the posting info) - my response was intended for FlakDancer, hence it was addressed to him.

 

[DonL]

Oh sorry, I haven't seen the time.
My apology.

 

[buffnut453]

No worries - the smilies were a bit of a giveaway that I wasn't being particularly serious.

 

[GregP]

Hi DonL, They only built 25 Fw 187's and the A-0 version went 329 mph (at altitude) against the early Mosquito prototype's 392 mph. How's it going to catch the Mossie? How's it going to outperform the Mossie? It had 700 HP engines for crying out loud. The airframe never got DB 600 series engines. And you think it was better than the Mosquito?

Please ... stick to real-world, live aircraft. An Fw 187 that outperformed the Mosquito is pure fantasy. If the DB 600 were fitted to the Fw 187 and if the CG issue could have been corrected, maybe the British would fit another fantasy engine to the Mosquito, too. Who can say. We should conccern ourselves with REAL airplanes, not fantasies.

In the event, the Fw 187 was a disappointment to the designer, the Luftwaffe, and the Reich. The Mosquito was exactly the opposite, and roamed freeely over the European skies for YEARS without an effective counter. On the last day of the war in Europe, any Mosquito on a solo mission was almost uninterceptable by anything other than a jet. And they didn't have too good a record at doing it when it counted.

There was no Ju 88 that could catch a typical Mosquito, either. As a night fighter the Ju 88 was good or even excellent, but not against Mosquitos, particularly against the NF Mosquitos who could see them as well as be seen.

 

[DonL]

Hi DonL, They only built 9 Fw 187's and the A-0 version went 329 mph (at altitude) against the early Mosquito prototype's 392 mph. How's it going to catch the Mossie? How's it going to outperform the Mossie? It had 700 HP engines for crying out loud. The airframe never got DB 600 series engines. And you think it was better than the Mosquito?

Please ... stick to real-world, live aircraft. An Fw 187 that outperformed the Mosquito is pure fantasy. If the DB 600 were fitted to the Fw 187 and if the CG issue could have been corrected, maybe the British would fit another fantasy engine to the Mosquito, too. Who can say. We should conccern ourselves with REAL airplanes, not fantasies.

In the event, the Fw 187 was a disappointment to the designer, the Luftwaffe, and the Reich. The Mosquito was exactly the opposite, and roamed freeely over the European skies for YEARS without an effective counter. On the last day of the war in Europe, any Mosquito on a solo mission was almost uninterceptable by anything other than a jet. And they didn't have too good a record at doing it when it counted.

There was no Ju 88 that could catch a typical Mosquito, either. As a night fighter the Ju 88 was good or even excellent, but not against Mosquitos, particularly against the NF Mosquitos who could see them as well as be seen.

Mr. GregP you are very incorrect!
The airframe of the FW 187 was designed from the beginning for the 35Liter 1000PS engines (here DB engines) out of it's advertisement.
There were no CG issue that must have been corrected and it wasn't by far any disappointment to the designer, quiet the opposite.
The airframe FW 187 V5 got the DB engines (DB 601 A1 1000PS each), first flight September 1939 and clocked 635km/h (with full armour and armament) at SL (1000m) and flew till 1942.

So please read some facts and primary sources and don't make unsubstained claims, which are obviously wrong and not reality.

 

[GregP]

The fact is there were about 25 fw 187's and none ever caught or damaged a Mosquito. It would be better if you can live with the facts. Fanstasy is nice but not relevant to the real world of actual combat. The Fw 187 was a blind alley as far as a combat aircraft is concerned.

Nice but absolutely irrelevant.

None of them did anything in the war ... it had no kills and no operational success at all.

How can you claim anything else? The facts are evident.

Big Zero!

 

[Elmas]

There have been a lot of planes that on the blueprints and as prototipes have been outstanding, but nothing than a failure when they got in the Operative Squadrons.
See the Breda Ba 88, about wich in another 3d or Westland Whirlwind.
And that for many reasons, not only for a lack in general design, say not fully developed engines, difficult serviceability etc.
So, to overemphasize a plane that never went in numbers into an Operative Squadron it is not completely correct, by my personal point of view.

 

[DonL]

The Fw 187 was a blind alley as far as a combat aircraft is concerned.

Nice but absolutely irrelevant.

None of them did anything in the war ... it had no kills and no operational success at all.

How can you claim anything else? The facts are evident.

Big Zero!

Stick to your opinion without any backup sources and to your unsubstained claims.

I stick to my sources and facts about the FW 187, which killed a Spitfire for example at Norway

I have said my opinion in Post 215, if you can't live with this opinion it is your problem, but you have not a single right to tell me what is my opinion and what can I post here in this forum with backup sources!

 

[stona]

Hi Steve

Could you clarify this please, by my schoolyard arithmatic, the Mosquito flew more pathfinder sorties than everyone else combined? Is there a mis-transcription here? What is the source for your claim so i can verify for myself?

It did,but nearly as many were flown by heavies,particularly Lancasters. The idea that the Mosquito was indispensible to pathfinding operations doesn't hold up. With no Mosquitos there would still have been Pathfinders and markers,and backers up,and master bombers and ABC aircraft and Broadcast Winds and all the other functions which were historically carried out by Lancasters.

The figures are from Middlebrook and Everitt's Bomber Command War Diaries.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Mosquitoes had a tangible effect on German nightfighters, as demonstrated by the extremely high attrition rates they suffered to non-combat relatedf causes after the introduction of Mosquito "escorts" and intruder operations. Ive read many times about the extreme stresses places on the nightfighter crews by the fear of Mosquito presence. It forced them to adopt dangerous expedients, like flying low, that at time opushed their attrition rates (to alol causes) to above sustainable levels.

Arguing that Mosquitoes did not have an effect on German defences in the Night Bombig camapign is a nonsense

The Nachtjagd had a high attrition rate due to non operational causes long before the Mosquitoes were operating. It has a lot to do with flying in the dark. Attrition rates did rise as the war progressed but then it correlates well with the increasing number of less well trained crews. There are many reasons and Mosquitoes may be a contributing factor. It would need a serious analysis of statistics (the data for which probably doesn't exist) to establish just how much of an influence the presence of British night fighters was.

The original premise was that the Mosquito had the same effect "escorting" RAF night bombers as the P-51 had for the USAAF by day. That is simply not so. I never said that the Mosquitoes had no effect on the RAF's bombing campaign. I said that the campaign would have continued,more are less as it did historically,without them.

Anyone got a figure for how many Luftwaffe night fighters Mosquitoes actually shot down? I read a lot about how effective they were but don't seem to see any figures.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Juha]

All I can say that IIRC in all of those several memoirs of German night fighter pilots I have read they mentioned the "fear of Mosquito" which forced to use risky landing procedures time to time.

Juha