10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

When you firebomb Japanese civilians, strafe them with fighters and conduct unrestricted submarine warfare, a nuke is just an add thing.

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No, it isn't. Again, you don't really understand the implications of using nuclear weapons (someone never let this guy run the military). Unrestricted submarine warfare, bombing of civilians (regardless of the morals of these things - don't go there - not the right place for it) was considered a part of the strategy to defeat the enemy by all sides, Germany, Britain, Russia, Japan. Again, Total War. Resorting to a silver bullet type weapon like atomic bombs is a last resort and was considered as such by the Americans. As for a special type of nuke in Manchuria? We are seriously straying off topic here! (I reckon you're just throwing things in for the sake of controversy, now)

But say that a specific type could not have a substitute that is the point.

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Which other aircraft could have done the escort job as well as the Mustang did? No other single seat fighter available to the Allies had the unrefuelled range, combined with good altitude performance and ability as a fighter that the P-51 had.

Jenisch said:

There was other planes that could be taken away from the Pacific. I'm not saying that the Pacific and even offensives in it should be abandoned. It was possible to ration even more the theater, this is my point.

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None of that was necessary because the war was already over for Germany, one of the main reasons why being the disruption of its war production supply systems by daylight bombing, which was only possible (in terms of acceptable losses to the Americans) after the introduction of the P-51B.

"... plus a special type of "nuke" in Manchuria."

Say what, Jenisch ....!!

Can you be a wee bit more specific there ... please.

AND

"... what was the threat that Japan representated? "

Oh, no biggie, Jenisch, just a few odd thousand Canadian, British, Commonwealth, American POW's who were being worked/starved to death in the mines ... for starters.

Sometimes, I wonder where you get your history from, my friend.

MM

nuuumannn said:

No other single seat fighter available to the Allies had the unrefuelled range, combined with good altitude performance and ability as a fighter that the P-51 had.

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The P-47N had.

michaelmaltby said:

"... plus a special type of "nuke" in Manchuria."

Say what, Jenisch ....!!

Can you be a wee bit more specific there ... please.

MM

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Soviet invasion of Manchuria.

stug3 said:

None of that was necessary because the war was already over for Germany, one of the main reasons why being the disruption of its war production supply systems by daylight bombing, which was only possible (in terms of acceptable losses to the Americans) after the introduction of the P-51B.

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That's my point, just in opposite. But still the P-38s could fight for a good part of the way, while the P-47D in 1944 also could. Then perhaps earlier than historically, the P-47N would show up. And again I will say: the LW is less active in the West, it would partially go back to the East, where the Russians would be waiting for it with thousands of fighters. But repeating that it would be just partially: the P-38s and P-47s would already consume a great part of the German fighter strenght (if not the same as historically), and anyway the LW was already in the majority in the West by late 1943, when the range of the escorts was short.

Deleted.

Soviet invasion of Manchuria.

August Storm .... brilliant attack.

MM

michaelmaltby said:

Soviet invasion of Manchuria.

August Storm .... brilliant attack.

MM

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Not only this, there are historians who argue that it could have been even more important to the Japanese surrender than the bombs. The Japanese didn't wanted an occupation, but much less a Communist one. There's a study by David Glantz, which I don't remember the name now, but it covers the Soviet intention to invade Hokkaido. And according to Glantz, it had a realistic chance of sucess. So for the Japanese in 1945, face only the US and the British Empire plus the US nukes, was already a tremendous problem. Add the Soviet Union to the equation, and the chance of a sucessfull defense and hence the country maintein the independance is next to zero. It made more sense to survive not independent, but not with Russian dependance (the Japanese were aware of what was happening in Eastern Europe and Germany).

The P-47N had.

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Indeed it did, but it was not available to the Allies in the ETO before or at the time the P-51B, C and D came online, so doesn't count.

Then perhaps earlier than historically, the P-47N would show up.

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You are just making it up as you go along, unfortunately, which negates your whole argument. Traditionally, its the Germans who are best at the theoretical 'what if' scenarios. Had German jet fighters come into service with their air-to-air missiles, then they would have been more than a match for the P-47N and that would have won the war for Germany.

As for August Storm, the Allies pushed the Soviets to invade Japanese territory sooner than they did; the lateness of the Russian counter offensive against the Japanese was due to Stalin politicking and could have been of more value to the Allies had it begun sooner. The Russians certainly had the resources to do so.

nuuumannn said:

Traditionally, its the Germans who are best at the theoretical 'what if' scenarios.

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This only for those who belive that Germany had a tecnological advantage over the Allies - a popular myth.

Had German jet fighters come into service with their air-to-air missiles, then they would have been more than a match for the P-47N and that would have won the war for Germany.

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There would not be only the P-47N. The P-38 had range to go into Germany and the P-47D in 1944 could go along a good part of the way. With the proper usage of the relay system, those fighters can still pressure the LW very well. And of course, the performance of the P-38 was inferior to the P-51, but it was not something critical. The P-47N would come as a complement. As for the German jets, what miracle do you think they would cause? Missiles? What missiles? The unguied rockets? BTW, the Allies also had jet fighters.

As for August Storm, the Allies pushed the Soviets to invade Japanese territory sooner than they did; the lateness of the Russian counter offensive against the Japanese was due to Stalin politicking and could have been of more value to the Allies had it begun sooner. The Russians certainly had the resources to do so.

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This is a moralist speech. There's nothing to do with how the things occured in WWII and I should say that occur in wars. You talk of Stalin, but the US and the "democracies" also done things you critizen that Stalin done. The US supported coups here in Latin American during the Cold War are an example. Politics are like that, there's no good or evil, there's just who is smarter than the other.

This is a moralist speech. There's nothing to do with how the things occured in WWII and I should say that occur in wars. You talk of Stalin, but the US and the "democracies" also done things you critizen that Stalin done him. The US supported coups here in Latin American during the Cold War are an example. Politics are like that, there's no good or evil, there's just who is smarter than the other.

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What?! Jenisch, I don't know how you came to this little spiel from my description of what actually happened. The Allies DID push for the Russians to launch an offensive against Japan sooner than they did. Stalin DID drag his heals about it and only did so after he was certain the Allies could secure victory - that's a fact - it has nothing at all to do with any moral crusade you think I might be indulging in or whether the US version of democracy is just, blah de blah...

What tempers the Russian victory over the Japanese in Manchuria is that Stalin only attacked Japan for a seat at the Victor's Table; only for the spoils. He could well have done so earlier, but did not. That's no anti-communist talk or anything like that - it's a fact.

As for the German jets, what miracle do you think they would cause? Missiles? What missiles? The unguied rockets?

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I don't think you grasped what I meant by that comment My insinuation was that if you can hypothesise that the P-47N was in service early enough to overshadow the P-51, then I can hy... oh, never mind...

Oh, yeah, the Germans were buileding an air-to-air missile - the Ruhrstahl Kramer X-4.

While I understand conjecture and speculation are a part of forums like this it often seems easy to get lost in the geo political aspects, but in many cases those post war scenarios were not as clear to the then political and military leaders. Plus, nothing is a foregone conclusion in a real war while that war is actually taking place.

One of the overriding real world factors for the military and political leaders near the end of the war with Japan was the shear ferocity of the Japanese resistance. While no war is pretty or easy some of the smaller invasions had been pure hell on both the Allies and the Japanese militaries. Okinawa had proven to be as ferocious and vicious as any battle of the war. The thought of invading Japan was daunting even given all the military advantages the Allies had at their disposal. However, even given that, it was not the Allies responsibility to let up when the Japanese were still keeping and moving POW's away from the Allies, still had active military operations on lands they had invaded, and refused to surrender.

If one wants some context to what may have happened check out the plans for Operation Causeway – an planned invasion of Taiwan (then Formosa) that never happened. Here is a link to web page with a fair amount of details. Given what had happened on Okinawa (which the Japanese considered a part of Japan) and what the Allies expected on Taiwan and the size of the invasion force needed there – the mere thought of invading Japan had to be fearsome to the Allied Commanders. http://https://sites.google.com/site/operationcauseway/

Plus, I may not have even been here if it had happened, lol. My father was on Okinawa with the America 536th Amphibious Tractor Division which had carried the American 7th Division into Leyete and Okinawa. They were preparing to invade Japan and already taken their shots for the invasion.

As for the answer to the P-51 question the answer is simple. 20,000 feet (those who use the metric system please forgive me for not knowing that system very well). It took a ton of courage by the Britisth to attack at night, but if one was going to fly those bomber missions over Germany during the day, they had to go up, up, up. The P-51 was the answer to that particular question, hands down. That, of course, evolved as time went on, but when it counted, the P-51 was first in line (no pun intended.)

For some reason the link I just posted does not seem to work here. Let me try again. If it fails please Google Operation Causeway. http://https://sites.google.com/site/operationcauseway/

Got it work.

1. How can anyone say the P-51 was not crucial to the defeat if Germany. How can anyone not put it in the top 10 aircraft crucial to Germany's defeat?

Seriously? Look at is capability and what it was able to accomplish. Take the fight and escort the bombers to the enemy. If other fighters could do it better, why didn't they?

Absured to not include it...

I think the P-51 is overrated in the fact that so many other aircraft that are overlooked because of the P-51. However, one can not argue its role and its contribution to winning the war against Germany. That is fact and not opinion.

2. What the hell does the bombing of Japan (as well as the politics snd moral aspects of it) and the B-29 have to do with the war against Germany.

BTW, the Allies also had jet fighters.

There's that jet thing again. How could the jets available to the allies in 1945 have represented any counter to German jets over occupied Europe? It was years before a jet fighter with the range of a P 51 was built.

As once was said, amateurs think strategy, professionals think logistics....

Jenisch said:

The main British and Soviet combat planes from 1939 to 1941 decided the war. But to be frank, I think that the Soviets by themselfs could already defeat Germany.

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I'm not so sure. To win a war you can't have soldiers with an empty belly........ and a large part of the calories that pushed the Red Army were produced in Iowa.
To say nothing about the trucks that are needed to transport those calories, of course...... but unfortunately a Ford truck is certainly not so glamorous as a P-51 or a Il-2: as once was said, amateurs think strategy, professionals think logistics.

Jenisch said:

With the proper usage of the relay system, those fighters can still pressure the LW very well.

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Nothing like the P-51. Some of the fighters turning up at the end of the relay could spend less than 15 minutes with the bombers. Their range and endurance wasn't magically increased,they just got there as economically as they could.

Cheers

Steve

Jenisch said:

The main British and Soviet combat planes from 1939 to 1941 decided the war. But to be frank, I think that the Soviets by themselfs could already defeat Germany.

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The next myth that is created by modern idiot historians.

Without lend lease there would be no chance for the Red Army and VVS to defeat germany.
Without foot, trucks, radios, the enormous technology transfer to the VVS you should present your arguments.

Also at new times the next myth came up that the Red Army would be able to defeat a defending Wehrmacht (Borderline 1941) 1942, if the Wehrmacht would have gone south instead of east and whole europe would be RED at 1943.

The new myths of the "mighty" Red Army and VVS without lend lease and learning effects are to my opinion ridiculous.

CobberKane said:

BTW, the Allies also had jet fighters.

There's that jet thing again. How could the jets available to the allies in 1945 have represented any counter to German jets over occupied Europe? It was years before a jet fighter with the range of a P 51 was built.

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Too Right Cobber - and Only with mid air refueling with the consideration that the tankers have to remain out of harm's way.