15th AF escort fighter group to protect Jackpine Joe

[uhebeisen]

I am looking for mission lists of the various fighter groups of the 15th Air Force in Italy during July 1944.
Searching all kind of information about the Consolidated B-24H Liberator named "Jackpine Joe" which on the 47th mission of the 780th bomber squadron of the 465th bomber group on 19. July 1944 crashed into the Wyden castle near Ossingen (Switzerland). The target was Allach aircraft factory near Munich. The bomber was hit by flak and the crew decided to go for Switzerland. The requested protection through fighters arrived just in time before being attacked by Me-109.

Now I wonder which fighter group was commanded to escort the bombers of that mission. Starting from the airfields around Foggia I assume that only P-51 Mustangs could do such long distances. This leaves only the fighter groups 31, 52, 325 and 332 with their squadrons. If anyone nows of about the missions these fighter groups had during July 1944 it would be of great interest to me.

 

[MikeMeech]

I am looking for mission lists of the various fighter groups of the 15th Air Force in Italy during July 1944.
Searching all kind of information about the Consolidated B-24H Liberator named "Jackpine Joe" which on the 47th mission of the 780th bomber squadron of the 465th bomber group on 19. July 1944 crashed into the Wyden castle near Ossingen (Switzerland). The target was Allach aircraft factory near Munich. The bomber was hit by flak and the crew decided to go for Switzerland. The requested protection through fighters arrived just in time before being attacked by Me-109.

Now I wonder which fighter group was commanded to escort the bombers of that mission. Starting from the airfields around Foggia I assume that only P-51 Mustangs could do such long distances. This leaves only the fighter groups 31, 52, 325 and 332 with their squadrons. If anyone nows of about the missions these fighter groups had during July 1944 it would be of great interest to me.

Hi

'Air War Europa' by Eric Hammel, p. 342, mentions the 15th Air Force attacks on targets around Munich (16 15th Air Force aircraft downed) on 19 July 1944
, and continues with:

"14th Fighter Group P-38 escort pilots down seven Bf-109s, 2dLt Michael Brezas, a P-38 pilot with the 14th Fighter Groups's 48th Fighter Squadron, achieves ace status when he downs a Bf-109 near Munich."

So perhaps P-38 units not P-51

Mike

 

[drgondog]

I am looking for mission lists of the various fighter groups of the 15th Air Force in Italy during July 1944.
Searching all kind of information about the Consolidated B-24H Liberator named "Jackpine Joe" which on the 47th mission of the 780th bomber squadron of the 465th bomber group on 19. July 1944 crashed into the Wyden castle near Ossingen (Switzerland). The target was Allach aircraft factory near Munich. The bomber was hit by flak and the crew decided to go for Switzerland. The requested protection through fighters arrived just in time before being attacked by Me-109.

Now I wonder which fighter group was commanded to escort the bombers of that mission. Starting from the airfields around Foggia I assume that only P-51 Mustangs could do such long distances. This leaves only the fighter groups 31, 52, 325 and 332 with their squadrons. If anyone nows of about the missions these fighter groups had during July 1944 it would be of great interest to me.

All 15th AF P-38J equipped with 55gal LE tanks after June had the range.'
On July 19th the 48FS/14th FG (P-38) were awarded three VC (Brezas, Langley and VanHorn). The 318th FS/325th FG (P-51) were awarded 3 (Meyers, Oxner and Schmerbeck). Don't have Encounter Reports to cite location.

Source - USAF Study 85, AFAA, Dr Frank Olynyk

 

[uhebeisen]

All 15th AF P-38J equipped with 55gal LE tanks after June had the range.'
On July 19th the 48FS/14th FG (P-38) were awarded three VC (Brezas, Langley and VanHorn). The 318th FS/325th FG (P-51) were awarded 3 (Meyers, Oxner and Schmerbeck). Don't have Encounter Reports to cite location.

Source - USAF Study 85, AFAA, Dr Frank Olynyk

In a newspaper story the pilot Archie Davis mentioned that he saw 6 Me-109 approaching halfway between Munich and Friederichshafen. And the fighters arrived just in time enganging the enemy fighters in dogfights and downed one Me-109.
At that particular day there were about 400+ airplanes involved in the mission (stated somewhere else). One could think that more than one fighter group was commanded to escort all the bombers.
But as I see there are books around showing such details maybe there is one of the 15th Air Force listing all there mission in detail too (even which fighter group would have escorted them)?

 

[uhebeisen]

Hi

'Air War Europa' by Eric Hammel, p. 342, mentions the 15th Air Force attacks on targets around Munich (16 15th Air Force aircraft downed) on 19 July 1944
, and continues with:

"14th Fighter Group P-38 escort pilots down seven Bf-109s, 2dLt Michael Brezas, a P-38 pilot with the 14th Fighter Groups's 48th Fighter Squadron, achieves ace status when he downs a Bf-109 near Munich."

So perhaps P-38 units not P-51

Mike

This widens the possible fighter groups and their squadrons. Since it was a bigger mission with more than 400 bombers the loss of 16 would be possible. Maybe there are books about the P-38 units over Italy with more information about their missions?
And maybe I have to ask for books about the involved bomber group 465 within the 55th bomber wing with daily details about all their missions.

 

[Snautzer01]

52466 (465th BG, 780th BS *Jack Pine Joe*) crashed in Switzerland Jul 19, 1944 during
mission to Munich. Number 2 engine went out over the target
and the prop could not be feathered. Navigator bailed out and became
POW, and crew headed to Switzerland. Crew bailed out after
crossing Lake Constance, but copilot was killed when he
failed to pul the ripcord. Pilotless plane crashed into the
castle of Wyden near Ossingen. MACR 6750.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen.

On July 19, 1944, the 14th FG conducted a fighter sweep over Munich, as both B-17;s and B-24's attacked. If I understand this correctly, I believe the P-38's would have been in advance of the bombers ?

Eagledad


Source- The 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John W Lambert. page 101.

 

[uhebeisen]

Gentlemen.

On July 19, 1944, the 14th FG conducted a fighter sweep over Munich, as both B-17;s and B-24's attacked. If I understand this correctly, I believe the P-38's would have been in advance of the bombers ?

Eagledad


Source- The 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John W Lambert. page 101.

as mentioned in a previous answer, pilots of the 14th FG shot down enemy fighters that day together with pilots of the 325th FG. If your source is correct and the P-38 would attack in advance of the bombers then their task was not to escort bombers, right? Instead they themself had to bombing targets near or over Munich, something the P-38 could do.
It isn't that easy to find documentations about the P-38 FGs (e.g. books or websites). It's easier to find informations about the 325th (the Checkertail clan) or the 332th (red tails, tuskegee airmen). If you own this book; are there any pictures showing the individual markings of the four fighter squadrons (37th, 48th, 49th and 50th)?

 

[drgondog]

as mentioned in a previous answer, pilots of the 14th FG shot down enemy fighters that day together with pilots of the 325th FG. If your source is correct and the P-38 would attack in advance of the bombers then their task was not to escort bombers, right? Instead they themself had to bombing targets near or over Munich, something the P-38 could do.
It isn't that easy to find documentations about the P-38 FGs (e.g. books or websites). It's easier to find informations about the 325th (the Checkertail clan) or the 332th (red tails, tuskegee airmen). If you own this book; are there any pictures showing the individual markings of the four fighter squadrons (37th, 48th, 49th and 50th)?

P-38s would not be tasked to bomb. If tasked to Sweep then they would not have been tethered to remain close to one or more assigned boxes of either B-17s or B-24s.

The challenge to determine position and responsibilities for the escort, you have quite a lot of research left.

Briefing Maps for each of the Fighter groups assigned.. or the Field Order Flash reports sent to each Fighter Group would detail the Bomb Wing and location in the bomber stream for escort assignment.

Don Caldwell's 'Day Fighters in Defense of the Reich' has a good day narrative of LW response . All 15th AF losses were due to flak. According to Caldwell JagdDiv 1 Bf 109s were blunted by the 14FG Sweeping P-38s and supported by the 325th escorting the lead B-24 BG's (unspecified). The 15th AF mission was comprised of 141 B-17s and 342 B-24s, escorted by 146 P-38s and 196 P-51s.

 

[uhebeisen]

P-38s would not be tasked to bomb. If tasked to Sweep then they would not have been tethered to remain close to one or more assigned boxes of either B-17s or B-24s.

The challenge to determine position and responsibilities for the escort, you have quite a lot of research left.

Briefing Maps for each of the Fighter groups assigned.. or the Field Order Flash reports sent to each Fighter Group would detail the Bomb Wing and location in the bomber stream for escort assignment.

Don Caldwell's 'Day Fighters in Defense of the Reich' has a good day narrative of LW response . All 15th AF losses were due to flak. According to Caldwell JagdDiv 1 Bf 109s were blunted by the 14FG Sweeping P-38s and supported by the 325th escorting the lead B-24 BG's (unspecified). The 15th AF mission was comprised of 141 B-17s and 342 B-24s, escorted by 146 P-38s and 196 P-51s.

very good, thank you drgondog.
Thus one of the FS, either from the 41FG or from the 325FG, will have come to the help of the wrecked B-24 bomber.

And I also think it's like looking for a needle in a haystack to find out. What I have found so far is a table of the 332FG (tuskegee airmen) missions on the Internet and they escorted the bombers of the 49th bomber wing. But so far I have not found any such lists from the two FG that come into question.
Perhaps you can also find useful information in the mission command of the 465th BG or the 780th BS? There must have been some kind of maps for that too. It would be interesting to know where their initial point (I.P.) was. Because from there on, Jackpine Joe ran into problems.

 

[drgondog]

very good, thank you drgondog.
Thus one of the FS, either from the 41FG or from the 325FG, will have come to the help of the wrecked B-24 bomber.

And I also think it's like looking for a needle in a haystack to find out. What I have found so far is a table of the 332FG (tuskegee airmen) missions on the Internet and they escorted the bombers of the 49th bomber wing. But so far I have not found any such lists from the two FG that come into question.
Perhaps you can also find useful information in the mission command of the 465th BG or the 780th BS? There must have been some kind of maps for that too. It would be interesting to know where their initial point (I.P.) was. Because from there on, Jackpine Joe ran into problems.

Recall that ALL the 15th AF bombers went down from flak - so escort assignment doesn't matter. 3Fold.com has all the MACR's (Missing Aircrew Reports) - so go into the MACR database, search on 780th BS and find the few for July 19th. The MACR will usually have maps and eyewitness statements plus LW "KG" reports for the crash site.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen

The 50th fighter squadron was permanently detached from the 14th Group in August of 1942 and stationed in Iceland, so it would not be part of the mission or the group in 1944. (Wikipedia, and 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John Lambert, pg 12)

The group / squadron markings in July 1944 as I understand are as follows

37th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 1 through 30 was used by the 37th squadron. Further, there was a red band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

48th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 31 through 60 were used by the 48th squadron. Further, there was a blue band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

49th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 61 through 90 were used by the 48th squadron. Further, there was a white band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

All numbers on natural metal aircraft were painted in black; white was used on camouflaged aircraft.
(P-38 Lightning in Action no 25, pg 15)


I believe by July 1944 most if not all P-38's in the group were natural metal.

Further at some point in 1944, 15th Air Force mandated that all P-38's and P-51 have red spinners as theater markings. If a squadron had more that 30 aircraft, the number for the next plane was in the 100 series. For example, if the 49th squadron had 31 aircraft, the 31st aircraft would be numbered 161. Finally, some 14th group P-38's had the group insignia on the outer left hand engine nacelle, and the squadron insignia on the right hand nacelle. (Fifteenth Air Force Story, by Kenn G. Rust, pg57)

I have attached a copy of the cover of Lambert's book. It will show the location of the ID numbers, and the location of the squadron color bands, as well as the red spinners.

 

[Milosh]

Have you tried contacting 465th Bombardment Group (H)

 

[uhebeisen]

Gentlemen

The 50th fighter squadron was permanently detached from the 14th Group in August of 1942 and stationed in Iceland, so it would not be part of the mission or the group in 1944. (Wikipedia, and 14th Fighter Group in World War II by John Lambert, pg 12)

The group / squadron markings in July 1944 as I understand are as follows

37th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 1 through 30 was used by the 37th squadron. Further, there was a red band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

48th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 31 through 60 were used by the 48th squadron. Further, there was a blue band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

49th Squadron had numbers on both sides of the nose and radiators. 61 through 90 were used by the 48th squadron. Further, there was a white band on each fin and around the horizontal stabilizer and elevator.

All numbers on natural metal aircraft were painted in black; white was used on camouflaged aircraft.
(P-38 Lightning in Action no 25, pg 15)


I believe by July 1944 most if not all P-38's in the group were natural metal.

Further at some point in 1944, 15th Air Force mandated that all P-38's and P-51 have red spinners as theater markings. If a squadron had more that 30 aircraft, the number for the next plane was in the 100 series. For example, if the 49th squadron had 31 aircraft, the 31st aircraft would be numbered 161. Finally, some 14th group P-38's had the group insignia on the outer left hand engine nacelle, and the squadron insignia on the right hand nacelle. (Fifteenth Air Force Story, by Kenn G. Rust, pg57)

I have attached a copy of the cover of Lambert's book. It will show the location of the ID numbers, and the location of the squadron color bands, as well as the red spinners.

View attachment 592691

thank you "eagledad" for this information. That book is already ordered.

 

[eagledad]

thank you "eagledad" for this information. That book is already ordered.

You are welcome.

I hope you enjoy the book.