1937 Fw-190 proposal powered by DB601 engine.

[davebender]

Many web sites mention this proposed fighter aircraft but I have yet to find any details. Are the historical specifications available?

 

[cimmex]

here is a pic with a (mirrored)DB605
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...309-lets-give-willy-another-chance-whatif.jpg
cimmex

 

[Siegfried]

here is a pic with a (mirrored)DB605
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/at...309-lets-give-willy-another-chance-whatif.jpg
cimmex

It has an oil cooler but no radiator. Now immagine the complexity of adding underwing radiators and their plumbing.

 

[davebender]

That's the historical Fw-190 with a Me-109 nose grafted on using a graphics program.

What did the historical 1937 Focke Wulf proposal look like? Did it have an annular radiator or wing mounted radiators similiar to the Me-109? How much did the aircraft weigh? What was the wing area?

 

[Shortround6]

Much more than likely it was a paper proposal with no metal cut. Even if we make the very big assumption that it was close to the actual 190, it would be close the 190 as actually first built. That is with the small wing.

However, considering the number of aircraft that kept the saw designation but radically changed appearance/form that is just a wild guess.

 

[shaba]

I think it would more look like fw-159 as early fw190 iteration's retained the 159 landing gear configuration and a mid wing. also there was a mid wing development of the 159 called the 259 that may be one in the same as the db601 fw-190.

 

[davebender]

Fw-159 was Focke Wulf's entry in the 1934 competition where it compared poorly to the He-112 and Me-109. Why would Dr. Tank resubmit a failed three year old design?

I think it would look somewhat similiar to the historical Fw-190 but that still leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

 

[stona]

The Fw159 was powered by a 680 hp Jumo 210 D power plant.

The Fw190 was designed around a radial engine from the get go. Tank himself explained why. First he compared the Spitfire and Bf109 to racehorses and said his express intention was to design a more rugged machine a "Dienstpferd",a cavalry horse.

He went on:

"We chose an air cooled radial engine for the new fighter for two reasons:firstly,because such engines are more rugged and could survive more punishment than the liquid cooled types;and secondly because the BMW company was bench running prototypes of a new engine,the 1,150 hp BMW 139,which developed somewhat more horsepower then any liquid cooled engine we had been offered. If our "Dienstpferd" was to come close in performance to other peoples' racehorses we would need all the engine power we could get.
Some people have suggested that I had to fight some kind of battle with the RLM to get them to accept the idea of a radial engined fighter. That might make a good story but it is not history.In fact,there was quite a large body of opinion in favour of such a fighter for the Luftwaffe."

Those are Kurt Tank's own words in the light of which it seems unlikely that Focke-Wulf would ever have proposed a liquid cooled,Daimler-Benz powered,version of the 190.

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Dozens of web sites say otherwise. They could all be wrong but I doubt it.

 

[cimmex]

The RLM told Focke Wulf that they would only buy a second fighter besides the Bf 109 if this new fighter does not use DB motors because the complete production was already planned for several Messerschmitt projects.
cimmex

 

[Shortround6]

We may be having a bit of confusion here.

DO we KNOW that the 1937 initial "concept/proposal" was even called the FW 190 or was their another name/designation?

GO to the original Handley Page Halifax, was it "designed" with two Sabres or with 4 Merlins? Drawings exist of the two Sabre version, calculations were done, performance estimates were worked out but how much actual design work (drawings of usable bits and pieces) was actually done?

Often a bunch of initial, designs/concepts or sketched out and compared with one or two of the most promising get a more extensive working up before being pitched to the customer.
There are several drawings of alternative P-39s, including one that has the gun behind the prop and a slightly shorter extension shaft than was used in the P-39 with the engine in the middle of the plane but the pilot BEHIND the engine very near the tail.
No metal is cut and often such "alternatives" are done to reinforce the decision to go a different way, in other words a V-12 powered variation may have been looked at in order to confirm the numbers they were getting for the radial version. Could they really get the weights, stress, and performance they thought they could from the radial in comparison to the V-12?
All with no intention of ever building the V-12 version.

 

[stona]

Dozens of web sites say otherwise. They could all be wrong but I doubt it.

Let me see...Kurt Tank or "several web sites"......I'll go with Tank.

He clearly gives two reasons why the Fw190 was designed for a radial engine. Of course if those "several web sites" have a better source than the designer of the aircraft I'd be happy to see them.
Note that he does not specify a particular radial engine but was obviously inerested in the prototypes being tested by BMW. He does however quite clearly specify a radial design.

Cheers
Steve

Edit. BTW the Fw190 wasn't built to any 1937 specification. The requirement for a new single seat fighter,which resulted in the Fw190,was received by Fock-Wulf in 1938. The February 1937 RLM specification was for a short range reconnaissance aircraft resulting in the FW 189 (as well as the Ar198 and the Ha141).
The dates are important as the Bf109 and Bf110 were in production and as "Cimmex" says the Daimler Benz engines were ear marked for Messerschmitt production.

 

[davebender]

RLM told Focke Wulf that they would only buy a second fighter besides the Bf 109 if this new fighter does not use DB motors

There weren't going to be additional Daimler-Benz engines because the RLM war vs Daimler-Benz was in full swing. Genshagen engine factory funding was cut from 50 million RM to 20 million RM. DB603 engine program funding was eliminated during 1937 after early prototypes produced "only" 1,500 hp.

Dr. Tank was politically savvy and desperate for a production contract so he submitted an alternate proposal powered by the BMW139 engine that was currently favored by RLM.

 

[wuzak]

GO to the original Handley Page Halifax, was it "designed" with two Sabres or with 4 Merlins? Drawings exist of the two Sabre version, calculations were done, performance estimates were worked out but how much actual design work (drawings of usable bits and pieces) was actually done?

Vultures, not Sabres.

Not sure how far along the HP.56 got before it became the HP.57 Halifax. It was more than just a proposal though.

 

[stona]

Dr. Tank was politically savvy and desperate for a production contract so he submitted an alternate proposal powered by the BMW139 engine that was currently favored by RLM.

Yes he was. He had already compromised (in late 1936) on the engines for the Fw187. He badgered the RLM's technical department into agreeing to the production of the prototypes even though no requirement for a new two engined fighter existed. Despite his initial intention to use the new DB600 engine he had to agree the use of the Jumo 210 as the RLM made it clear that the Daimler Benz engine was not available to him.
Even with the lower powered Jumo the single seat version of the Fw187 was 50mph faster than the Bf109B.

I can't find a single shred of evidence that a Daimler Benz powered proposal for the Fw190 ever existed. The BMW 139 powered version was not an "alternate proposal" it was the only one.If anyone has some evidence,apart from "various websites",to the contrary I'd love to see it.
Why on earth would Focke-Wulf propose an aircraft that they knew had absolutely no chance of being accepted? By 1938 Tank and Focke-Wulf were well aware that the only way they would get a fighter into production was to use an alternative power plant. Tank himself explained why they settled on the BMW radials in one of my posts above.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Aurum]

Dozens of web sites say otherwise. They could all be wrong but I doubt it.

Give links to some of them, please

1937 Fw-190 proposal powered by DB601 engine.

I think it's a fake just because I have definite data that FW-190 project was started in July 1938.
There was no of FW-190 with any kind of motor in 1937.

 

[stona]

I think it's a fake just because I have definite data that FW-190 project was started in July 1938.
There was no of FW-190 with any kind of motor in 1937.

And you'd be correct. See my post number 12.

This is the sort of thing that surfaces from time to time on the internet where anybody can post anything without any supporting evidence. As I said in my previous post the Fw190 was born in 1938 with a radial BMW engine.

There may be some confusion with the earlier Fw187 which was indeed originally intended to use DB 600 engines,until the RLM told Focke-Wulf that they couldn't have any.

The internet tends to mix fact and fiction to make new "truths".

Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Here are three. If you want more just enter "Fw-190" in Google.

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In autumn 1937, the German Ministry of Aviation asked various designers for a new fighter
Kurt Tank responded with a number of designs, most incorporating liquid-cooled inline engines.

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - Germany

In the autumn of 1937 the Reichluftministerium placed an order with the Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau for the design development of a new single-seat fighter to supplement the Messerschmitt Bf 109.

Tank's design team prepared two proposals; one based upon the use of the Daimler-Benz DB601 liquid-cooled engine

Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - History and Pictures of German Fighter Plane

In 1937, even as the Bf 109 was just beginning to realize its potential, the the RLM, Reichsluftfahrt Ministerium, prudently issued a request for a next generation fighter plane. The Focke Wulf company's initial responses (based on the DB 601 engine) drew little interest

It makes no difference to me whether the 1937 Focke Wulf single engine fighter aircraft design(s) powered by a DB601 engine would have been called a "Fw-190".

Did Focke Wulf company records survive the war? If so then historical design specifications must be available somewhere.

 

[stona]

Did Focke Wulf company records survive the war? If so then historical design specifications must be available somewhere.

Some did,some didn't. Kurt Tank did. I refer you to my earlier post.

I can't find this order from the RLM for a Focke-Wulf single seat fighter in the autumn of 1937 in any of my references. You'd think someone (Rodeicke,Smith,Creek,Tank himself etc) would refer to it. Unfortunately,unlike in a printed history,internet "historians" rarely quote their sources. Nor can I find any mention or evidence of a DB 601 powered proposal. Why would they make such a proposal when they knew perfectly well that the engine would not be available. Again Tank never mentions it.
There was no 1937 single seat,single engined, Focke-Wulf fighter called anything at all. It didn't exist. The Fw187 did start life as a single seater,albeit with two engines. I honestly believe someone somewhere got their wires crossed and this error has been propagated on the internet. It happens a lot.
The fact that several web sites repeat the same mistake should not come as a surprise to anybody. I have seen all sorts of aviation related web sites literally cut and paste from wikipedia.
Cheers
Steve

 

[davebender]

Why would they make such a proposal when they knew perfectly well that the engine would not be available.

Because Heinkel, Focke Wulf, Dornier and probably several other aircraft manufacturers wanted to reverse the RLM decision to curtail production of Daimler-Benz aircraft engines. It would have worked if Goering had sided with the aircraft manufacturers.