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Stuka was credible because it have better intelligence/targeting, contact with ground observers.The Battle is about the only RAF asset that might be considered a CAS asset...and we can see how successful they were. Conversely, the Stuka was a credible
Stuka was credible because it have better intelligence/targeting, contact with ground observers.
It had escorts, not a fighter sweep that went through area in the same time frame (minutes different than the Battles) and the formations never saw each other.
Not sure what protection the Stuka, had, if any in 1940. we know that the Battle didn't have any (or very little) and using a 16,000ft engine in a CAS airplane with a two pitch propeller was not helping anything.
You could have magically replaced every Battle with Ju-87s (pixie dust) and the results would have hardly changed.
Which is exactly my point about it not being in Britain's interest to go to war in 1939. Britain was under no direct threat of attack.
Not sure I agree here. The Luftwaffe was inherently a tactical air force, which was part of the (mistaken) driving force for almost every German bomber having a requirement for dive bombing.
The Battle is about the only RAF asset that might be considered a CAS asset...and we can see how successful they were. Conversely, the Stuka was a credible CAS platform. I'd suggest that German state-of-the-art for CAS was considerably ahead of the RAF's.
Which is applying the retrospectroscope. Even as late as August 1939, it was not known whether there would be a large-scale conflict...and the Allies were trying hard to avoid the same. But your point about Hitler wanting a war is bang on the money...and why I keep raising the point about structure-vs-agency. Britain and France had the agency to threaten war but that agency butted up against the structural problem that Hitler couldn't be persuaded and was intent on war. Does that make the use of said agency by Britain and France wrong?
If we accept that Britain couldn't do anything to defend the territorial integrity of Poland (which they never promised to do, anyway), what options are left for them? Apart from a more aggressive assault in the west, the only other alternative is to not commit to Poland at all. That gives Germany free rein.
My point is that your suggestion of using the RN to shell ports would put those Allied vessels at considerably increased risk of attack from aircraft and submarines. There's no way either the RAF or FAA could provide air cover so close to German territory.
As to the idea of a sea blockade, exactly what vessels would the blockade stop? Neutral vessels going between Germany and the USA? That'll go down well in Washington. How about coastal vessels from other European nations, many of which were also neutral...so the Allies would be interfering with neutral nations' legal shipping activities which isn't something the "good guys" should be doing. Even if the RN sought to disrupt solely German-flagged cargo vessels, you're still bringing the RN much closer to Germany than to the UK...which, again, puts the vessels at risk.
One final note on the idea of a German blockade...the entire purpose behind Hitler's expansionist agenda was to secure more resources for the German people within Europe. Hitler saw the impact of the Allied blockade during the Great War and was determined not to make the same mistake. Germany was thus far less reliant on maritime shipping than was the UK. Under these conditions, would a maritime blockade really apply much pressure on Berlin? I suspect not.
Not in the west but it still couldn't get forces to Czechoslovakia or Poland.
We've already discussed the fact that France perhaps should have taken more aggressive action on that front in 1939 but, for whatever reason, Paris didn't make that call. Could the French Army create enough of a kerfuffle to pull forces from Poland in time to save the latter? I suspect not. The German advances in Poland were so rapid in the first 14 days that they essentially neutralized Poland's mobilization efforts. That mobilization was key to achieving Warsaw's strategic vision for the nation's defence, which involved encircling the invading force. From that point on, Poland was merely reacting to Germany's advances with no real hope of winning.
The only way to truly save Poland would be to preserve the territorial integrity of Poland was, somehow, to get boots on the ground...and that was impossible.
Again, two strong nations went to war on behalf of Poland and they did it immediately. What more do you want them to do? Should they not have made the commitment in the first place and let Germany run amok with no consequences?
As for "curious reading," well someone put the term "unprovoked resort to arms" in the language of the agreement between France and Czechoslovakia. That caveat was there for a purpose. Not sure my reading is, therefore "curious."
As to Poland, the "immediate assistance" was also caveated by "all support in their power." We keep going round and round on this. Britain did assist immediately, as I've explained many times. What sort of "immediate assistance" do you have in mind that was militarily practicable?
Oh, come on mate. You're better than that. We both know I never claimed that the Brits delivered any such thing. I also observed that the betrayal of Poland in 1945 was deplorable.
However, there's no way that London, in 1939, could foresee how the war would proceed. What odds that the USSR, which in 1939 was an ally of Germany, would join the Allies, along with the USA which, in 1939 was neutral? Blaming Britain for not envisaging the change in the power dynamic by the end of 1945 is really going too far.
The key point is that Britain went to war because it was committed to preserving an independent Poland. The fact that Poland was sold out by all the Allies in 1945 doesn't change the intent of why Britain went to war in the first place. It took years of fighting before the collective Allies were in a position to defeat Germany. Blaming Chamberlain for lacking a suitable crystal ball is taking things too far, IMHO.
I can (and have) agreed that Munich was a policy to buy time (whether it was cynical or not depends on how Machiavellian one presumes the participants to be).
However, the idea that Britain was still cynically buying time in 1939 doesn't make sense. Buying time for what, precisely? Deterrence had failed and Britain was at war. Time had run out. It wasn't buying time for further rearmament. It wasn't buying time to get the BEF into France. It wasn't buying time to start offensive operations. There was no more time to buy.
The fact that deterrence failed does not mean that the promise was empty. As you've pointed out, Hitler was intent on war. London and Paris didn't KNOW that in 1939. There were plenty of indicators but there was still a belief that Hitler was capable of being persuaded. Hell, there were senior politicians in London in May 1940 who were still advocating a negotiated settlement. And yet Britain persisted in the fight.
Yes, a more strident attack by France for the Saar offensive might, stress MIGHT, have had some impact. However, Polish organized resistance had effectively ceased by 17 September. The French decided to retreat from the ground taken in the Saar offensive on 21 September. I'm not sure there was enough time, even with a more aggressive French attack, for Berlin to realize the scale of the threat, let alone divert forces from Poland to counter the French. And that all presupposes that France could have tackled the Siegfried Line without significant losses.
You're only making my point for me: if the Western Allies are as helpless as you assert, then their promises were absolutely vapid. You're trying to eat your cake and have it too. Either the Allies promises had teeth, or the Allies were powerless. They cannot be both.
But you're applying the retrospectroscope and judging based entirely on hindsight. When Britain and France declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939, they couldn't POSSIBLY know that Polish defences would essentially be broken within 2 weeks. They moved forward immediately with existing plans for the BEF and AEF to deploy to France. As it turned out, the Polish defence, valiant as it was, crumbled very quickly, which didn't leave enough time for a concerted Allied effort to address the German threat.
Bear in mind that nobody had ever seen warfare conducted like this before...there's a reason it was termed blitzkrieg. Germany's close tactical integration of air, armour, infantry and artillery, coupled with rapid manoeuvre, entirely unhinged the Polish defences. Given that nobody, until then, had seen the German army in action, is it realistic to believe that London and Paris could have foretold the chain of events that ultimately unfolded?
Imagine if the Polish military had remained as a coherent defensive force thru the end of October or beyond. That would afford far more opportunities for a combined Anglo-French attack on the western front. With the BEF in the front lines on 3 October, they'd have almost a month to go on the offensive while Poland was, simultaneously, continuing to cause problems for the German invading force. Unfortunately, this isn't what happened. However, that doesn't make the promises or actions by Britain or France vacuous. Again, we're back to structure -vs-agency.
Despite the rapidly-changing situation caused by Poland's rapid capitulation, Britain still stood by the promise of an independent Poland, maintaining the Polish government in exile and equipping Polish soldiers to fight for the ultimate victory. Those were actions that Chamberlain undertook as part of his promise to Poland. The fact that later leaders reneged in 1945, long after Chamberlain's death, is not his fault, nor should he carry any blame for it.
That does not address my point: you cannot both argue that the Allies had no options while simultaneously arguing that their promises had teeth.
As for whether Poland's quick defeat was unforeseeable, that's not so. The UK and France sent a joint military mission to Moscow precisely because they knew that the Poles would need immediate help that only the USSR could provide. Said talks foundered upon Poland's refusal to allow Soviet troops in the nation -- but the fact that the Allies pursued them demonstrates that Poland's defeat was not only foreseeable, but foreseen in the absence of immediate aid.
You're the one asserting that the promises had no teeth.
Yes.Were England or France aware of the deal between Germany and Russia?
True, but none to help the contact signed i think.opening a western front against Germany
As far as I can see it had lots of reasons. Hitler may have been dissuaded from even starting a war. He may have been dragged into a war as in 1914-18, no one expected France to fall in weeks in 1940. But in the worst case scenario Poland may have been lost, it would have been lost anyway, but the UK (and France) was at war, the measures that the UK government were able to enact with war time emergency powers played a big part in the BoB and everything that came later. The UK was fully mobilised for war by 1940 Germany wasnt.Just an observation.
True, but none to help the contact signed i think.
What is the point of making a promise and then say we cant do it?
Sending some 2 nd line battleships into Gdansk would have made a point.
And in a more personal observation, i hope this interessting discussion stays gentleman like.
Regards,
And you're the one shooting down any suggestions for action.
I'll return to this conversation once we've gotten past this lather-rinse-repeat phase. Your refusal to acknowledge any justice at all to my points is not borne out by history, nor by many Britons who were alive at the time.
Just an observation.
True, but none to help the contact signed i think.
What is the point of making a promise and then say we cant do it?
Sending some 2 nd line battleships into Gdansk would have made a point.
And in a more personal observation, i hope this interessting discussion stays gentleman like.
Regards,
It is 200 miles from Norway to the choke point getting into the Baltic.2.Snautzer01 wants the RN to send a couple of battleships to Gdansk. Let's explore the pros and cons of that course of action, in particular what other forces or agreements might be required to enable it. For example, could the RAF base aircraft in Norway to provide some covering air power?
The British pulled near miracle getting the BEF into France when they did. It was actually a show force of limited capability. There was only 1 division that could be called well trained. Or perhaps adequately trained would be better. The Officers involved did a great job of training the troops over the winter and they preformed very well indeed in May of 1940. But that was not what they were capable of in Sept-Oct 1939. The British army was greatly expanded in 1938-39 and many of the divisions were pretty much new even though some of the regiments were not, but the units have to get use to operating together. Also old units were split off or numbers of old troops were used as training cadre for the new units.6. Finally, we should probably explore whether there was anything Britain could do to accelerate the movement of the BEF to the front line of the western front in September 1939. Given the speed of Germany's advance, a month is simply too long. Could corners have been cut to accelerate getting a substantial force into operations sooner?
It is 200 miles from Norway to the choke point getting into the Baltic.
It is about 480-490 miles from Norway to Gdansk and you need to fly over both Denmark and Sweden to get the distance that short in addition to basing the planes out of natural. Norway didn't become an ally until The Germans attacked. Norway refused to the let the British land an expedition force just a few days before the invitation in April.
Old battleship would probably be 1 or 2 "R"s. Rather deep draft, not very good AA. Putting one or 2 Rs in the Baltic where you can't them back out is probably a no go.
The British pulled near miracle getting the BEF into France when they did. It was actually a show force of limited capability. There was only 1 division that could be called well trained. Or perhaps adequately trained would be better. The Officers involved did a great job of training the troops over the winter and they preformed very well indeed in May of 1940. But that was not what they were capable of in Sept-Oct 1939. The British army was greatly expanded in 1938-39 and many of the divisions were pretty much new even though some of the regiments were not, but the units have to get use to operating together. Also old units were split off or numbers of old troops were used as training cadre for the new units.
French capability in Sept of 1939 is certainly questionable. My own feeling is that the French probably improved but I doubt that on average (individual units may have done good training over the winter) the French army improved as much. The French Army was many times the size of the BEF so it is hard to get a read on it with very casual study.
Thump, it may seem like that but I've agreed that the the Saar offensive was a missed opportunity. I've also asked a lot of questions that have gone unanswered. I'm more than happy to dig into the details of options and work together to determine what might have been feasible. Here are a few initial ideas:
1. You raised the idea of a naval blockade. I asked questions about what would be blockaded and how it would be enacted. I'll gladly contribute to an exploration of the feasibility of such an approach if we can uncover the extent of Germany's dependence on shipping and any key vulnerabilities.
2.Snautzer01 wants the RN to send a couple of battleships to Gdansk. Let's explore the pros and cons of that course of action, in particular what other forces or agreements might be required to enable it. For example, could the RAF base aircraft in Norway to provide some covering air power?
3. I'd like to learn more about the disposition of German forces on the western front in September 1939. Experience from the Great War showed that offensive action was far more costly than defending a well-established position. I'd like to learn more about how well the Siegfried line was developed and defended to see if there was any chance of French forces pushing beyond it in September 1939.
4. One of the biggest shortfalls in the Saar offensive was the lack of reliable intelligence on the size, composition and locations of German forces. Perhaps we could explore actions to accelerate creation of the RAF's Photographic Reconnaissance Unit. It would also be worth exploring how capable the Government Code and Cypher School was at exploiting German military signals in early/mid 1939. I have books on that I can explore.
5. We recently touched on the approach of Britain and France to the USSR to support Poland. Given Moscow's later decision to invade and Poland's (probably justified) refusal to let Soviet soldiers enter Polish territory, perhaps we could dig into more detail on the details surrounding these events to see if there were any missed opportunities, or whether the USSR was steadfastly against supporting Polish independence.
6. Finally, we should probably explore whether there was anything Britain could do to accelerate the movement of the BEF to the front line of the western front in September 1939. Given the speed of Germany's advance, a month is simply too long. Could corners have been cut to accelerate getting a substantial force into operations sooner?
The contract said that Britain would help preserve an independent Poland.
Well, that was a big reason (not the only one) for the invasion of Norway.iron from Sweden during the winter when it has to pass the Skaggerak,
A distant blockade would cut off a lot of materials such as nickel and chrome from Turkey, iron from Sweden during the winter when it has to pass the Skaggerak, and that sort of thing. Granted that these things too would be long term and not immediate, direct assistance.
I wouldn't do that at all. My comment was more about submarines, which while being almost as dangerous will be likely more effective.
I'll have to fetch a couple of books from home to answer this better. But the wall was still being constructed in fits and starts and the divisions defending it were not first-rate; those were busy attacking Poland.
I don't think GCCS was able to read Enigma until 1940. As for developing PRUs etc, that again does zero-point-zero assistance to the Poles in a useful time-frame. It will certainly help the British war effort later in the war. A fat lot of good that does the millions of Poles already dead by then.
To what end? Stalin didn't want an independent Poland. The Poles were surely right that if you let the camel's nose in at nightfall you wake up next to him in the morning. 45 years of post-war occupation demonstrated that. What happened was that the Germans, having resolved to attack Poland after they had digested the rump Czech state in Mar 1939. They hurried up their courting of the Soviets after receiving hints that Stalin would be amenable. Thus, by the time Drax et al set out for Moscow in Aug, they had already been passed up by events, in addition to the Polish intransigence about Soviet troops passing through. The Soviets rightly regarded the Allied mission as an attempt to save a deteriorating situation with them (the Soviets) to provide the muscle. But by the events were in train to send Ribbentrop to Moscow and with an agreement already in process of being hammered out.
In short, by the end of July 1939, there were no opportunities to miss.
Perhaps? I don't know. I would imagine that getting those divisions together and shipped would likely have taken some time. I don't see the Brits being able to intervene on land in time to save Poland at all. They were impotent that way.
I think the smart money is on drawing the line after the reoccupation of the Ruhr, the te3aring up of Versailles, and the Anschluss on any further German shenanigans -- and presenting a strong face at Munich. That was the last chance to stop Hitler without war, and the Western Allies muffed it.
And the UK did not do that. This is a fact of history.