1940: ideal fighter for the Luftwaffe?

[Shortround6]

War time economics is also about getting the most bang for your bucks, Which is not always provided by the cheapest possible weapon in each category. While the troops don't need BMWs and Mercedes giving them Yugos and Trabants isn't much better than giving them nothing if the other side has Fords and Chevys.
If you need 2 or 3 "cheap" weapons to do the job of 1 more expensive weapon they are not so cheap anymore. Throw in the cost of training the troops and maintaining them in the field (food, water, shelter) and maintaining/feeding the weapons (fuel, parts, ammo) and "cheap" weapons can become very, very expensive.
Winning wars is very expensive, sometimes bankrupting, loosing wars is even more expensive.

Good news, you saved $20,000 per airplane.......Bad news, you lost the war.

 

[krieghund]

Politics tend to fall by the wayside when a nation is fighting for survival as was the case for 1940 Germany. Peacetime military production is an entirely different matter.

Lets look at it this way...your 1940 fighter had to be developed in the 1936-38 time frame.......no threat then and Messerschmidt had the favor of the party. Oh bad luck.

 

[Gixxerman]

The much over-looked fact of the matter is that by 1939 the nazi's had bankrupted Germany.
Hence (admittedly amongst other reasons) the war began in 1939 and not the planned 1942-43 timescale which had been previously expected (and, I believe, even assurances to close allies - Mussolini - about this were given).

Germany had gotten into such a dire economic state that looting other countries exchequers was the only way to fund itself......which knocks on to helps explain a lot of the cancelling as many projects as they thought they could easily pursuading themselves that it was all as good as over in 1940.....and that the supposedly very primitive Russians would be an easy push-over with what they already had.

 

[The Basket]

109 was shooting down aircraft like them nine pins.

Hardly a bad machine. If you look at the performance in BoB of the Emil....apart range.....you give it high score.

 

[davebender]

1930s Europe was a powder keg waiting to explode. The situation was much more tense then pre-WWI Europe. That's why Germany began large scale rearmament during 1935.

2 May 1935. Franco-Russian military alliance.

16 May 1935. Russo-Czechoslovak military alliance.

14 July 1935. Mass demonstrations in Paris.
Approximately 30,000 march for right wing organizations.
The left wing demonstrators are estimated at 300,000 to 500,000.

1936 – 1938. Czechoslovakia constructs border defenses (4 fortress complexes) facing Germany.

Early 1936. Soviet Armed forces.
1.3 million military personnel.
5,000 tanks.
100,000 trucks.
150,000 artillery tractors.
112 submarines.
3,500 military aircraft.
…..Soviet military spending quadrupled between 1936 and 1940.

16 Feb 1936. A communist controlled "Popular Front" alliance takes control of the Spanish government. The Comintern repeatedly states that they intend to outlaw the right and to convert Spain into the Soviet vision of a "people's republic" with total leftist domination. Left wing vigilantes clash with right wing vigilantes causing thousands of casualties. Spanish police forces openly assist the communist side in these fights.

26 April and 3 May 1936. French legislative elections. A communist "Popular Front" comes to power.
This was the last French legislative election until 1945.

18 Jul 1936. The Spanish military goes to war against the communist government in Madrid.

Soviet military assistance to the Spanish communist government. Russia received $500 million in gold as compensation. Soviet aircraft and tanks were conducting combat operations by October 1936. Total Soviet assistance to the communist forces greater then combined German and Italian assistance to nationalist forces.
30,000 International Brigade soldiers. These were organized, trained and equipped by the NKVD.
648 aircraft. Plus 772 Soviet pilots.
350 x T-26 and BT-5 light tanks. Complete with Soviet tank commanders.
Large quantities of small arms, artillery and ammunition.

7 Sep 1936. The Popular Front (i.e. communist dominated) government of France approves an additional 14 billion francs for the French military, to be spent by 1940. ¼th of this money was for army mechanized forces (i.e. increasing offensive capability).

16 Oct 1937. The Sudete German Party (2nd largest in Czechoslovakia) is violently suppressed.

14 Nov 1937. National elections cancelled in Czechoslovakia.

1 Mar 1938. Revolution in Austria against the single party rule of Chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg.

9 Mar 1938. Austrian Chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg announces a national plebiscite to determine a possible merger with Germany. However the election is rigged as only Yes ballots (supporting the existing government) are provided.

11 Mar 1938. Germany sends Austria an ultimatum in response to the plan for a rigged plebiscite. The plebiscite must be cancelled and Austrian Chancellor Schuschnigg must resign.

12 Mar 1938. The German army enters Austria unopposed. Austria becomes a state within the 3rd Reich, something they have been wanting to do since the break up of Austria-Hungary in 1918. There is no serious opposition to this union within Austria or Germany.

22 Mar 1938. Sudeten Germans withdraw from the national government of Czechoslovakia.

10 Apr 1938. Austrian national plebiscite. 99% vote for union with Germany.

19 – 20 May 1938. Political disorders break out in Czechoslovakia. The Czechoslovak army is mobilized. Britain and France express support for the Czechoslovak government.

25 Jul 1938. Runciman mission to Prague. Britain dispatches a fact finding mission to Czechoslovakia. Lord Runciman's report supports the German claims.

26 Jul 1938. British Lord Runciman goes back to Czechoslovakia to serve as mediator between the national government and the Sudeten Germans.

12 Aug 1938. Germany mobilizes 750,000 soldiers as a show of force. This is a reply to the Czechoslovak army mobilization.

26 Aug 1938. Britain mobilizes their navy as a show of force.

7 Sep 1938. France mobilizes 1 million soldiers as a show of force.

12 Sep 1938. Germany demands that Sudeten Germans be given the right of self determination. The Czechoslovak government declares martial law and begins additional political crack downs.

18 Sep 1938. Anglo-French conference in London. They decide that Czechoslovakia should allow self determination for the Sudeten Germans.

20 Sep 1938. Czechoslovakia rejects the Anglo-French-German proposal for self determination.

21 Sep 1938. The government of Czechoslovakia backs down and agrees to self determination for national ethnic minorities. This includes ethnic Poles and Hungarians in addition to the Sudeten Germans.

24 Sep 1938. The government of Czechoslovakia orders a complete army mobilization. This is a reply to German demands that the plebiscites be conducted under international supervision no later then 25 Nov 1938.

29 Sep 1938. Munich conference concerning Czechoslovak plebiscites. Germany, Italy, Britain and France reach agreement. Czechoslovak military forces are to evacuate the areas in question by 10 Oct 1938. This would allow plebiscites to be conducted under conditions arranged by an international commission.

29 Sep 1938. Polish ultimatum to Czechoslovakia. They want to annex Teschen. The region had been in dispute since 1920.

30 Sep 1938. The government of Czechoslovakia backs down and accepts the Munich agreement of 29 Sep 1938.

2 Oct 1938. Polish army occupies Teschen.

6 Oct 1938. Zilina Agreement. Slovakia becomes an autonomous province within Czechoslovakia..

8 Oct 1938. Carpatho-Ukraine becomes independent of Czechoslovakia in accordance with self determination.

2 Nov 1938. Border disputes between Slovakia, Poland and Hungary settled. Germany and Italy mediate the solution.

11 Dec 1938. The National Socialist Party of Memel receives 90% of the vote.

 

[Gixxerman]

Dave

You must surely know that Hitler was the real threat.
Almost every one of those points was merely either an excuse with no impact on nazi Germany (until nazi Germany decided to get involved - Spain would be a good example of this......and which was subsequently ruthlessly exploited for the nazi war-machines benefit) or of his own making.
It is well documented that far from seeing threats all around him Hitler actually thought the western powers were corrupt, weak decadent that he would force his expansionist policies through regardless, ignoring their feeble protests.

Similarly the revisionist claim that Germany's war in Russia was a premptive strike is made nonsense by Hitlers own well documented 'You need only kick in the door the whole rotten edifice wll come tumbling down' remarks before the attack.
Just as he is quoted as having been cheated of his war over Czechoslovakia - and his complaints about Gorings 'flower wars'.

The fact that he was so staggeringly wrong proves nothing but his own grossly poor disasterous judgerment.

 

[wuzak]

1930s Europe was a powder keg waiting to explode. The situation was much more tense then pre-WWI Europe. That's why Germany began large scale rearmament during 1935.

So, nothing at all to do with Hitler's ambitions?

Hitler's rise to power was smooth, democratic and non-violent?

You don't think the Soviet Union's military build up was in part response to German re-armament, and part to do with continuing border fights with the Japanese and tensions with the Chinese?

That British re-armament was in reponse to events on the continent, particularly in Germany?

Similarly with France?

Germany was threatened by fixed defences on their border with Czechoslovakia? I wonder why Czechoslovakia felt the need to up its broder defences with Germany?

Do you think if the Royal Navy and the French Army hadn't mobilised as "a show of force" in 1938, in resposne to the German army mobilising, that Hitler would have invaded Czechoslovakia in 1938?

You point out instances where Germany protested at unfair elections or plebiscites. Don't you think that is the pot calling the kettel black, since Hitler banned other political parties in 1933 (after coming to power) and the following elections in 1933, 1936 and 1938 were far from free and fair?

11 Dec 1938. The National Socialist Party of Memel receives 90% of the vote.

I wonder why?

Do you think, also, that had the French not been in political turmoil during the years 1936 to 1940 that they, with a bit of leadership, could have successfull invaded Germany in 1939 and put a stop to the war?

 

[davparlr]

I once read an account of a P-40 squadron that deployed from the west coast to the east coast by air. Because of weather, break downs, malfunctions and fueling stops it took almost 2 weeks to get the squadron back together again. Mechanics, supplies and other support went by train. Flight is by VFR only which limits days/hours for flight. Distance from Southern Maine (Portsmouth Navy yard) to Miami is about the same as Gothenburg, Sweden to Marseille and from LA to Jacksonville FL is 2146 miles while it is only 1739 miles from Dublin to Moscow. American planes needed some range just to deploy around the country.

A concept that allowed American fighters later to penetrate deep into enemy territory and take the fight past the Forward Edge of the Battle Area (FEBA) something the early European fighters were only marginally able to do.

Needs and requirements change and some times the first of a new generation are locked into a form that cannot be changed (as well as later models of that generation can be) to meet the new needs and requirements. In some cases it is just luck.

Astute observation. A couple of good historic examples are the HMS Dreadnought and the F-117 Nighthawk. Both were revolutionary in concept but technology quickly overtook them and they were operational for only a short period of time.

 

[parsifal]

My apologies for not having read all the posts. To my mind, there is no such thing as the ideal or perfect fighter in the context of mid to late 30's development. What needs to be looked at was the LW principal doctrines and how best to achieve that.

Even though in hindsight we have the obvious setback in the BoB to overshadow our thinking, in point of fact, the LW was not designed for that purpose of gaining front wide long range penetration air supeiority. It was very much a tactical force, tied to short ranged rapid redeployment to provide direct aircoiver and ground support to its ground forces. Like it or not, thats what the LW excelled at, and thats what it needed to develop equipment wise. in the context of the LWs primary mission, it had no need of a long range deepe penetration air superiority fighter. It neeed high performance, heavy armament and lastly good protection. IMO the 109 was as near to perfect to achieving that mission profile as could be asked for.

Only if the basic battle doctrines of the LW are disposed of and a new doctrine written for the LW can the idea of a more broad spectrum fighter be considered as superior equipment. For what the LW was equipped to do, I dont think thats realistic and therefore, not needed

 

[The Basket]

I think we all agree the Germans should have had a new fighter prototype airborne in 1940 whose intention was direct replacement for the 109...ready in numbers 1943 to replace the Gustav.

 

[Vincenzo]

just for clear the Franco-Soviet and Czechoslovak-Soviet treaty were defence alliance (from article 2 of F-CCCP treaty "In the event that, in the circumstances described in Article 15, paragraph 7, of the League of Nations Pact, France or the U.S.S.R. may be, in spite of the genuinely pacific intentions of the two countries, and subject of unprovoked aggression on the part of a European state, the U.S.S.R. and France will immediately lend each other reciprocal aid and assistance.")

The spanish Popular front was not controlled from communist, the spanish communist party was small and with limited influence it take 17 seats of 285 of Front (in a 473 Chamber).

The french popular front had a much larger presence of communist party (this take 15% vote and 72 seats in a 610 members Chamber) but PCF not take part to government only socialist and radical ministers. the Blum government lived only 1 year.


adding in the spanish civil war there were yes 30 or 35,000 internationalist that were not equipped and trained to nkvd, the internationalist were not all comunist, some probably were bad boy for the nkvd. But german and italy send around 95,000 men.

 

[Shortround6]

My apologies for not having read all the posts. To my mind, there is no such thing as the ideal or perfect fighter in the context of mid to late 30's development.

True but I am not sure there is ever an ideal or perfect fighter, the users always want something more. Speed, ceiling, range, armament, something always drives the next requirement. What everybody was/is searching for is the best compromise using the available power/technology. In the late 1930s what was "ideal" with a 700hp engine was not was was "ideal" with a 1000hp engine and far from "Ideal" with a 1300-1400hp engine.

What needs to be looked at was the LW principal doctrines and how best to achieve that.

Even though in hindsight we have the obvious setback in the BoB to overshadow our thinking, in point of fact, the LW was not designed for that purpose of gaining front wide long range penetration air supeiority. It was very much a tactical force, tied to short ranged rapid redeployment to provide direct aircoiver and ground support to its ground forces. Like it or not, thats what the LW excelled at, and thats what it needed to develop equipment wise. in the context of the LWs primary mission, it had no need of a long range deepe penetration air superiority fighter. It neeed high performance, heavy armament and lastly good protection. IMO the 109 was as near to perfect to achieving that mission profile as could be asked for.

Only if the basic battle doctrines of the LW are disposed of and a new doctrine written for the LW can the idea of a more broad spectrum fighter be considered as superior equipment. For what the LW was equipped to do, I dont think thats realistic and therefore, not needed

I am not at all sure that this is true. The idea that the Luftwaffe was a tactical force "tied to short ranged rapid redeployment to provide direct aircoiver and ground support to its ground forces" is a one of long standing but I wonder how much of that is formed by looking back at it. It is true that they stopped the "Ural" bomber but the Ural bomber was years ( and a generation or TWO of engines) from being a practical reality. The He 111 was a lousy tactical bomber, especially in the early step front versions, but about as good a "long range bomber" as anybody else had in the late 30s. It wasn't much behind what anybody else had in numbers in 1940 either. Given "typical" European distances and what was possible with a pair of 1938-40 engines ( how many other countries hand more than a handful of 4 engine bombers in USE?) The Luftwaffe had about as much reach as any other European nation. While the 110 started as a kampfzerstorer the intent and requirement was changed to just zerstorer before the first ever flew.
The provision of the blind bombing systems also seems strange for a tactical air force. How much time was needed to set up the "beam" systems and how much use would they be in supporting ground forces?

I am certainly not saying the entire Luftwaffe was a strategic force. Just pointing out some inconsistencies with the idea that the Luftwaffe was purely a tactical force.

 

[riacrato]

SR6, seriously, how was the He 111 a "lousy" tactical bomber for 1940 or any time prior?

 

[davebender]

Me-209
Me-309
Me-155 (land based variant without arresting gear).
If the Me-109 were replaced during 1943 it would probably be one of these aircraft.

DB605A is the only engine available in quantity during 1943.
DB603 and Jumo213 will be available in quantity (or can be made available) during 1944. DB605D engine will also become available during 1944.

Given these conditions which aircraft would you choose to replace the Me-109 on the production line during 1943?

 

[davebender]

It's my understanding this proposed Me-109 successor had a lot in common with the Me-155. Perhaps Messerschmitt used the cancelled Me-155 CV fighter aircraft design as a starting point.

Modified Me-109G fuselage.
New wing with wide track landing gear.
Galland / Erla canopy.

1943 production aircraft would be powered by DB605A engine. However unlike Me-109, the Me-209 had growth potential to accomodate a DB603 or Jumo 213 engine.

I suspect Me-155 / Me-209 has a much better chance for wartime production then the Me-309 which employed an entirely new airframe.


Me-309. Nice looking aircraft with advanced features but I cannot see it entering mass production under historical circumstances.

 

[riacrato]

I highly doubt an Me 209 powered by a DB605 is going to convince anybody. Even if your only intent is to bring a fighter with growth potential into existance, the question arises: Why add another airframe to the arsenal that can't do anything the Fw 190 can do?

Germany's fate for a post Bf 109 fighter stands and falls with the DB603 and Jumo213. There are plenty of valid airframe choices available and probably even the maligned Me 309 is one (not much primary sources available on this one it seems). The most obvious, logical and in the end chosen one being the Fw 190 . The Me 209 would've very likely chosen if not for the existance of the Fw 190. But the Fw 190 D and Ta 152 won the competition fair and square.

 

[davebender]

Funding the DB603 engine program so it enters mass production during 1941 would certainly make things easier. However RLM Chief Tomo Pauk doesn't appear to like the engine any better then Milch. Nor does he like the twin engine Fw-187.

 

[krieghund]

Funding the DB603 engine program so it enters mass production during 1941 would certainly make things easier. However RLM Chief Tomo Pauk doesn't appear to like the engine any better then Milch. Nor does he like the twin engine Fw-187.

One the other side of the coin;

If the RLM would have allowed the other German fighter already in LRIP in 1939 to go into full production (which is superior to the 109E in many regards) there was already a logical progression planned. This was later submitted as competition to the TA152 fighter. I like the DB603 engine which is perfect because it was designed for the DB603M.

Of course on the He100 I would have adopted the Japanese solution for the oil cooler and used the rest of the cooling surfaces for the engine. The Ki61 EX was successful in its testing for the Ki-64.

 

[The Basket]

Go joint with Soviet or Italian or Japanese allies.

A German MiG-3 or maybe C.205 Veltro or a quick look at the Ki-61 maybe.

 

[davebender]

400 liters. Me-109.
535 liters. Fw-190.
770 liters. Me-309.
1,100 liters. Fw-187.

How much internal fuel do the He-100 and He-112B carry?