wuzak
Captain
So, will having a production Fw 187 in 1939 stop Germany invading Poland?
1940: Luftwaffe's ideal heavy fighter?
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So, will having a production Fw 187 in 1939 stop Germany invading Poland?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That's a bit of a stretch. WWII was actually multiple wars fought for various reasons in widely separated locations around the planet. Germany had nothing to do with most of these conflicts.
Late 1930s was an era when bomber barons had many European populations afraid of air attack using poison gas. Civilians in Britain and France were purchasing gas masks in large numbers. Hence anything which makes the Luftwaffe stronger (or appear to be stronger) could have a deterrent effect all out of proportion to actual military capability. That could alter Anglo-French decisions to attack Germany during September 1939.
Personally I doubt Germany could produce enough Fw-187s by the summer of 1939 to make a difference but DonL appears to be the forum Fw-187 expert. I'm hoping for a production estimate.
DonL
Banned
I have given my estimation.
I'm neither convinced of the He 100 (equal the D with normal cooling or the water evaporation cooling) nor to cut anything at the Bf 109E mass production.
According the RLM would order the FW 187 to be mass produced end of 1938 with Focker Wulf and Gotha, to my opinion earlier isn't possible, perhaps 150-200 aircrafts will be delivered end 1939, operation ready at April 1940.
At 1940 something about 1500 a/c's could be produced, depending how much material and engines are available.
Without fail the 1250 Bf 110 which were produced 1939/1940 could be reached, with more material and engines the numbers above.
I'm neither convinced of the He 100 (equal the D with normal cooling or the water evaporation cooling) nor to cut anything at the Bf 109E mass production.
According the RLM would order the FW 187 to be mass produced end of 1938 with Focker Wulf and Gotha, to my opinion earlier isn't possible, perhaps 150-200 aircrafts will be delivered end 1939, operation ready at April 1940.
At 1940 something about 1500 a/c's could be produced, depending how much material and engines are available.
Without fail the 1250 Bf 110 which were produced 1939/1940 could be reached, with more material and engines the numbers above.
Shortround6
Major General
Man, this alternative history is getting rather strange, are we discussing some science fiction novel?
" WWII was actually multiple wars fought for various reasons in widely separated locations around the planet. Germany had nothing to do with most of these conflicts."
Let me see if I have this right.
Germany had nothing to do with the Spanish civil war?
Germany had nothing to do with the the war in North Africa?
Germany had nothing to do with the war in the Balkens?
Germany had nothing to do with some of the fighting in Iraq?
Germany was just defending itself against Poland?
Granted Germany had little or nothing to do with the fight in the Pacific but it didn't have to declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor either.
"That could alter Anglo-French decisions to attack Germany during September 1939"
Yep, the Fw 187 in numbers could have caused the British and French to renounce their treat obligations to Poland and cowardly hide while the Germans rolled over yet another country.
" WWII was actually multiple wars fought for various reasons in widely separated locations around the planet. Germany had nothing to do with most of these conflicts."
Let me see if I have this right.
Germany had nothing to do with the Spanish civil war?
Germany had nothing to do with the the war in North Africa?
Germany had nothing to do with the war in the Balkens?
Germany had nothing to do with some of the fighting in Iraq?
Germany was just defending itself against Poland?
Granted Germany had little or nothing to do with the fight in the Pacific but it didn't have to declare war on the US right after Pearl Harbor either.
"That could alter Anglo-French decisions to attack Germany during September 1939"
Yep, the Fw 187 in numbers could have caused the British and French to renounce their treat obligations to Poland and cowardly hide while the Germans rolled over yet another country.
DonL
Banned
I also disagree with this strange political appraisements!
I wanted to discuss the optimal heavy fighter for the LW 1940!
And as I wrote no FW 187 ZG would be also under optimal circumstances realy operational ready at 1939!
That's a fact from all sources I have read about tooling, mass production and training.
Edit: A mass produced FW 187 from beginning 1939 would had only direct influence at BoF, Dünklirchen and BoB.
But I have my doubts that this influence at BoB, my personal estimation are 350-400 a/c's would be that large, because the supply on trained pilots was a real problem at BoB for the LW. So I think the casualties of pilots and a/c's for the RAF would be higher and less for the LW but at the end there would also be a strategic retreat for the LW!
I wanted to discuss the optimal heavy fighter for the LW 1940!
And as I wrote no FW 187 ZG would be also under optimal circumstances realy operational ready at 1939!
That's a fact from all sources I have read about tooling, mass production and training.
Edit: A mass produced FW 187 from beginning 1939 would had only direct influence at BoF, Dünklirchen and BoB.
But I have my doubts that this influence at BoB, my personal estimation are 350-400 a/c's would be that large, because the supply on trained pilots was a real problem at BoB for the LW. So I think the casualties of pilots and a/c's for the RAF would be higher and less for the LW but at the end there would also be a strategic retreat for the LW!
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- Thread starter
- #106
Thank you for a least giving an answer.
No problems
Against the counterparts you've stated, there was nothing special P-38, as an airframe, was offering. It's wing was tick, twin boom design with short central nacelle was preventing easy addition of second crew member more fuel, twin booms do restrict field of view.
You can note that 3 of the 4 you've stated are far younger designs, too.
From early 1942 'till 1945, P-38s were not encountering TE oposition worth speaking about. Prototypes aside.
I've adressed the TE designs of the other countries their capabilities earlier in the thread.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That's about what I figured. Fw-187 production would parallel historical Ju-88 and Me-110 programs. 1939 production less then 100 total aircraft as most of the year would be for training factory workers and fixing glitches in the production process. Large scale production would begin during 1940. Exactly how large depends on how many manufacturing centers are allocated to the Fw-187 program.
DonL
Banned
Translation issue
That's a bit of a stretch. WWII was actually multiple wars fought for various reasons in widely separated locations around the planet. Germany had nothing to do with most of these conflicts.
Sometimes I really wonder about you...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Superior to "all other fighter aircraft"?
Sorry, But I have to call bullshit on this...
So the reason that the Fw 187 wasn't adopted by the RLM/Luftwaffe was Goering?
Goering had his manifest shortcomings,I'm no fan of the man,but that is far too simplistic an answer. If others in the RLM/Luftwaffe had seen the world beating,war winning aircraft you perceive it would have been produced.
I'm well aware of and greatly respect Hermann's research but a balanced view can be obtained by reading the opinions and conclusions of other researchers. Noone has a monopoly on the tuth.
And Davebender,the US was involved in every theatre of WW2,if not by a physical,military,presence then by its economy. Soldiers on the ground might ultimately occupy the opposition's capital,but they won't get there if they've nothing to fight with.
Steve
Goering had his manifest shortcomings,I'm no fan of the man,but that is far too simplistic an answer. If others in the RLM/Luftwaffe had seen the world beating,war winning aircraft you perceive it would have been produced.
I'm well aware of and greatly respect Hermann's research but a balanced view can be obtained by reading the opinions and conclusions of other researchers. Noone has a monopoly on the tuth.
And Davebender,the US was involved in every theatre of WW2,if not by a physical,military,presence then by its economy. Soldiers on the ground might ultimately occupy the opposition's capital,but they won't get there if they've nothing to fight with.
Steve
DonL
Banned
This isn't bullshit from the data's that existed from primary sources.
Then please name the "others" which can overrule Göring! Udet was chief of the technical department. He, is officers and engineers ordered the FW 187 V's after the flight of the V1 at 1937. The technical department ordered also the preproduction series after the FW 187V4 flights at Rechlin 1938 and wanted that a FW 187B with DB 601 would go in production.
So the officers and engineers of the technical department were pro FW 187, but the FW 187 in production means, no further production of the Bf 110!
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Could be true but I don't fully trust post-war statements by German leaders when it comes to assigning blame for mistakes. Blaming someone dead is especially easy as the man cannot defend himself.
Hitler was everyone's favorite scapegoat. Albert Speer tried hard to blame delayed production of the Me-262 on him. However there is no serious discussion of Speer's decision not to produce the Jumo 004A engine which was ready during 1943. Speer also offers no serious explanation for non production of the Jumo 222A engine, delayed production of the DB603 engine and the Me-210/Me-410 fiasco which began the same month he became Armaments Minister.
Udet and Goering both blame Milch for production of the He-177A rather then the 4 engine He-177B. Goering was Milch's boss during 1938 when that decision was made. If Goering always wanted the He-177B as he claims then why didn't he over ride Milch's decision?
Dr. Tank preferred Daimler Benz engines. RLM pushed development of radial engines during the late 1930s. Focke Wulf appears to have bent over backward in an attempt to use the non-existant (as of 1938) BMW801 engine for their new fighter aircraft in order to acquire a lucrative production contract.
The military industrial complex is ruled by politics and that's never going to change. Nor is shifting of blame when something goes wrong.
Hitler was everyone's favorite scapegoat. Albert Speer tried hard to blame delayed production of the Me-262 on him. However there is no serious discussion of Speer's decision not to produce the Jumo 004A engine which was ready during 1943. Speer also offers no serious explanation for non production of the Jumo 222A engine, delayed production of the DB603 engine and the Me-210/Me-410 fiasco which began the same month he became Armaments Minister.
Udet and Goering both blame Milch for production of the He-177A rather then the 4 engine He-177B. Goering was Milch's boss during 1938 when that decision was made. If Goering always wanted the He-177B as he claims then why didn't he over ride Milch's decision?
Dr. Tank preferred Daimler Benz engines. RLM pushed development of radial engines during the late 1930s. Focke Wulf appears to have bent over backward in an attempt to use the non-existant (as of 1938) BMW801 engine for their new fighter aircraft in order to acquire a lucrative production contract.
The military industrial complex is ruled by politics and that's never going to change. Nor is shifting of blame when something goes wrong.
Now we may be getting somewhere!
Davebender,it's not often I can say this but I agree to a large degree with your post above. It's partly why I said that the "blame Goering" is far too simplistic.
Cheers
Steve
I think BS was called because noone has any idea how the Fw 187 would have perforemed in combat. Extrapolating from the performance figures of half a dozen prototypes ( I assume you would ignore the Jumo powered "production" run of three) is an excercise needing caution.
Steve
Shortround6
Major General
The Question is if the Fw 187 could really do the same job in 1939/40 as the Bf 110.
The question of radio fit ( required radio needed separate operator) , desired combat duration ( second crew man reloaded the 20mm cannon) and questions of field performance ( did the Fw 187 require a longer airstrip?) all factor in as much as top speed, climb and turning ability. Granted the field performance might be the first to be waived but it was a definite limit in several air forces until the bullets actually started flying.
I don't know what part of the requirement for the Bf 110 required space for an occasional 3rd crew member but that bit required both a bigger fuselage and bigger wing than even a strict two seater. Air forces were seldom purchasing aircraft that failed to meet requirements, no matter how far fetched or out of touch with reality those requirements were.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
What job are you referring to?
The Me-110 was an aircraft in search of a purpose. It found that purpose during 1940 when the German night fighter force was created from scratch. But what was the purpose during 1937 when the Fw-187 was rejected in favor of the Me-110?
The Me-110 was an aircraft in search of a purpose. It found that purpose during 1940 when the German night fighter force was created from scratch. But what was the purpose during 1937 when the Fw-187 was rejected in favor of the Me-110?
wuzak
Captain
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The Jumo 222A engine was a large program which consumed a considerable amount of development money. Not to mention a huge factory complex constructed from scratch to produce the engine. How can a serious discussion of WWII German armaments production avoid discussing such a large program?
Don't forget at this time there was still peacetime production and peacetime thinking in Germany. After several very quick and rather easy victories there was a general opinion: "we'll win the war with the existing weapons and there is no need at all to spend money in new equipment"
Cimmex
Cimmex
