1940: Luftwaffe's ideal heavy fighter?

[stona]

What job are you referring to?

The Me-110 was an aircraft in search of a purpose. It found that purpose during 1940 when the German night fighter force was created from scratch. But what was the purpose during 1937 when the Fw-187 was rejected in favor of the Me-110?

It was designed as a "destroyer". According to Luftwaffe doctrine it was supposed to clear a path for the bombers, and provide long range reconnaissance.
The original concept was (whatever DonL thinks) for the aircraft to be capable as a "light" bomber and was put out to tender in June 1934. The RLM's further requirement for a high speed bomber in early 1935 meant that the Bf 110 became more of a pure "zerstorer".

The Vultee report hit the nail on the head.

"The Messerschmitt Me 110 [sic] long-range fighter is an aircraft designed for blitzkrieg production as well as blitzkrieg warfare."


Clearing a path for the bombers,against a well organised and determined defence,equipped with competitive single engined fighters proved a bridge to far for the Bf 110.One area in which the type did well in the BoB was as a fighter bomber,attacking precision targets.

It did,as you say,form the backbone of the Nachtjagd for the rest of the war and proved quite capable as a fighter bomber on the Eastern Front. The Fw 187 couldn't have performed the first role and we'll never know how it would have done in the second.

It was the success of the Bf 110 in these unintended or secondary roles that militates against its cancellation in favour of another twin engined type.

Cheers

Steve

 

[DonL]

It was designed as a "destroyer". According to Luftwaffe doctrine it was supposed to clear a path for the bombers, and provide long range reconnaissance.
The original concept was (whatever DonL thinks) for the aircraft to be capable as a "light" bomber and was put out to tender in June 1934. The RLM's further requirement for a high speed bomber in early 1935 meant that the Bf 110 became more of a pure "zerstorer".

This is simply bogus!

The original concept RüstflugzeugII/III was a heavy fighter to escort Bombers!

The Priorities:

speed (400 km/h at 6 km altitude)
range (2000 km)
climb (15 min auf 6 km)
turning

Don't tell something what isn't true the intention of the destroyer/zerstörer was to escort bombers.

Also it's rather suspicious to ask after the combat performance of the FW 187!
The three preproduction aircrafts were in combat from 1940 till 1942 at Norway Denmark and Bremen, also combat was simulated at Rechlin with the V4!

There is nothing that the Bf 110 can do, that the FW 187 can't do (the nightfighter role with onboard radar since mid 1942 is debatable). And to me it is near ridiculous to question that perhaps the FW 187 hadn't the estimated performance. The FW 187A0 at Norway performed better from hard facts and the opinion of the pilots with Jumo 210G engines against the Bf 110 C1/2 with DB 601 engines. That's a fact you can't ignore and there nothing to discuss.

@ shortround 6

I will email to Mr. Hermann of the radio issue, but I think the Fw 187 could take the same radio equipment as the Bf 110.
The FW 187 is in "need for a longer landingstrip" compare to the Bf 110.

The nozzle retraction speed for a FW 187B with DB 601E engines and 6000kg full loaded (fuel and ammo) would be 152km/h.
The landingspeed would be 139km/h at 5000kg.

That's roughly the same nozzle retraction- and landing speed of a FW 190A.
So why should one a/c rejected for this, but you are developing an otherone with the same datas?

 

[stona]

No, The layout of the Zerstorer as a strategic reconnaissance aircraft and bomber was well established by the time of the Rustungfleugzeug II of 1932.It is not known whether the idea of using the basic aircraft type for three roles came from within the RLM or from one of the tendering companies.
It is in 1934 that Messerschmitt and Robert Lusser (who has now left Heinkel) meet with the RLM to discuss the Zerstorer concept. This is after the Luftwaffe has decided that the original concept would be slower and heavier than the bombers it was supposed to protect. Following these meetings Messerschmitt submits Memorandum P 1035 to the RLM which offers a pure zestorer design and versions as a strategic reconnaissance aircraft and a bomber. The variants differ fundamentally only in the design of the fuselage. Henschel's engineers came up with versions where only the nose section changed! It is at this point,1934,that the Zerstorer has effectively been seperated from the Kamfzerstorer. The first of these concepts,offered in P 1035 went on to become the Bf 110.

I cannot emphasise enough that the Fw 187 was not competing against the Bf 110.The competing types were the Fw 57,Hs 124. The difference both dimensionally and conceptually between these three is because the Luftwaffe and RLM had not finalised the type and hoped to find the best from the three alternatives offered.

The reason that the RLM isued a requirement for a high speed bomber in early 1935 was that it was well aware of problems with the bomber-destroyer concept and now wanted specialised types. This played into the hands of Messerschmitt and his Bf 110.
It is only in November 1935 that the RLM finally decides that the Bf 110 will be developed as a Zerstorer and orders the high speed bomber mock up (Bf 110 V4) to be developed as the Bf 161 high altitude reconnaissance aircraft.
At this time the RLM notes that it considers the Bf 110 Zerstorer version to be capable as a high speed bomber and even supplies BFW with additional technical requirements for that role. The bomber role had not gone away.

Cheers

Steve

 

[DonL]

You overlook totaly the "development" of the Rüstflugzeug III at 1934!

This was exactky a typ to escort bombers as Heavy fighter.
At 1937 the Bf 110 was named Heavy fighter at the order program of the RLM!

And we are here in this thread discussing the ideal heavy fighter for the LW 1940!

The Fw 187V4 outperformed the Bf 110B in every role except turining at Rechlin 1938.

What is your intention stona? Do you want suggest the Bf 110 performed better then the FW 187?

From 1939 till 1943 the Bf 110 was in the role of the heavy fighter at BoF, BoB, Norway and Malta and I have explained very exactly, that first the FW 187 could play the nightfighter role till the onboard radar, because it could be flown at night and bad weather equal to the Bf 110, and the eyes of the nightfighters till mid 1942 was the groundstation Himmelbett, also there are alternatives with the Do 215B5 Kautz III.
Second the Fw 187 had a good payload so it's able to carry also bombs under the fuselage (the project from 1942 (DB 605)was explicit with 1000kg bombs), third the performance of the FW 187 A0( Jumo 210G) was equal to better as the Bf 110 C1/2 (DB 601a).

So it is a no brainer, that the FW 187 would be in the same league or better as the Bf 109E with DB 601a engines as a two seater heavy fighter.
The estimations and plans from Focker Wulf were very exact for all there projekted a/c's the whole war, which were given to the RLM!
All estimation of the FW 190 A 3-9 /F/G D-9 and Tank 152 were reached in reality from production airecrafts.
Also modern software and calculations confirmed the estimations of Focker Wulf about the FW 187!

Fw 187B with DB 601a engines
empty: 4300kg
loaded: 5700kg
4 x 7,92 MG + 2 x 2cm FF
estimated speed at 5km 615km/h at SL 525km/h
climb performance ~ 4,5 to 5 min to 5km
1110 Liter internal fuel.

 

[stona]

Tell me which RLM specification the FW 187 met.
It is not a Zerstorer. Even with the second crew position it does not meet that designation.
Unlike Focke-Wulf BFW was entirely dependant on RLM contracts and obviously didn't develop the Bf 110 in a vacuum. I wonder what the relationship between the team designing the Fw 187 and the RLM was?

You are correct that to produce the Fw 187 the Bf 110 would have to have been abandoned. There was competition for engines. On 18 October 1940 the retro fitting of DB 601 N engines,to Bf 109 Es, was stopped in order to fit them to new built Bf 110s and Bf 109 Fs. This was reversed on 6th November when,for two months, the new Bf 110s were to get DB 601 A engines and the Ns were to be fitted in the Bf 109 Es (and as replacements for a couple of zerstorer groups).
Throw another twin engined fighter into the mix,competing for Daimler Benz engines,and you will come up short.

Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

An interesting concept was evaluated in Japan, where Kawasaki built test flew the Ki-64. Tandem engine configuration, but with front props, using Japanese produced version of the DB-601A, with surface cooling. With 2300 Hp on board (with basically 2 in line engines), it was estimated to be as fast as 690 km/h - maybe never achieved, since the plane caught fire during the 1st flight.

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org - Imperial Japanese Aviation Resource Group - Kawasaki KI.64 "Rob"

 

[davebender]

Throw another twin engined fighter into the mix,competing for Daimler Benz engines,and you will come up short.

Oct 1935.
RLM reduces funding for Genshagen engine factory from RM 50 million to RM 20 million. The reduced size production facility is expected to produce 220 engines per month.

Fixing this problem requires nothing more then simple math and common sense. 100 Fw-187s (per month) require 200 additional engines plus spares. Genshagen engine factory funding must be restored to the full RM 50 million.

Or you could stick your head in the sand and wonder why there aren't enough DB601 engines to support Fw-187 airframe production.

 

[Shortround6]

The Jumo 222A engine was a large program which consumed a considerable amount of development money. Not to mention a huge factory complex constructed from scratch to produce the engine. How can a serious discussion of WWII German armaments production avoid discussing such a large program?

And the Americans funded an expansion or new factory for the Continental IV-1430, Wright dumped more than a few million into the R-2160 Tornado, probably over a million went into the 0-1230 and H-2340 and the navy was funding the liquid cooled X-1800. The entire US hyper engine program was a complete bust. The XP-49, XP-54, XP-55, XP-56, XP-58 aircraft came to nothing and only the XP-49 was flown at all with the intended engines.

We can discuss the Jumo 222 program all you want. The program was a bust and the engine didn't work. It had plenty of company. At some point good managers stop throwing good money after bad.

 

[wuzak]

Well, I suppose Göring could have put the 222 into production.

And they could have put those engines in the airframes designed for the 222.

And they could have ended up with a Vulture/Manchester type situation. Engines catching fire, planes having inadequate performance, etc.

 

[Shortround6]

The first 3 Fw 187 airframes were single seaters. Whatever use they were in proving systems or aerodynamics they are not competition for the 110. It appears that the FW 187 was designed as a private venture and not as a response to an official requirement. It was later adapted to the two seat configuration in an attempt to compete for the Zerstorer role. As such it may have been coming in late and trying to disrupt an existing program.

One chart in Hermann Petrick's book on the 187 lists a landing speed of 139kph for the Fw 187 V1 at 3850kg, tested or calculated or misprint I don't know.
Another chart shows 130kph for a gross weight of 5000kg for the V-4 and 0- series. The maximum speeds in the chart are calculated. Is the landing speed? Range and endurance are listed as at maximum speed????

 

[DonL]

I had said this in more then one thread!

The Ju 288 with the Jumo 222 was the pigeon on the roof.
An advertisement of a 1500 PS engine, developed of the existing engines, would be the bird in hand!
Sometimes it is better to have the bird in hand.
The Ju 288 was too ambitioned for 1938 and the coupled engines of the He 177 to get a heavy strategic bomber in a dive was......ridiculously!

But we are talking of the ideal heavy fighter at 1940 for the LW! Wanted is an a/c which will be equal to a FW 187?!

Edit:

The first 3 Fw 187 airframes were single seaters

Wrong the first two, the V3 was two seated!
The first order was from von Richthofen at 1936 as a direct deal to built an escort fighter, this was in agreement with Wimmer.

Landingspeed of the Fw 187V4 was 130 km/h at 4100- 4200kg kg!

No, endrance was Reichweite 1.450 km at Marschgeschwindigkeit (1.1 ata)
With Sparleistung 1800km (0.8 ata)

 

[Shortround6]

I actually rather like the Fw 187, I just have a little trouble believing some of the proposed/calculated performance figures. Or believing that the special cooling system could be made to work in combat as well as was hoped.

Could the special DB 601s be built on the same assembly lines as standard DB 601s?

Would each "improvement" in the DB series need a corresponding special engine for the Fw 187 that was not interchangeable in any other airframe or would later Fw 187s give up on the special cooling systems and use standard engines and normal radiators with their higher drag?

 

[DonL]

Ähm,

shortround6 you are mixing data's

The flight of the V5 at october 1939 with the special "Dampfheißkühlung" was 635 km/h at SL (1000m what is near SL)

Here we are talking about a "normal" FW 187 with normal cooling -> equal to a Bf 110C!
The estimations of FW were with totaly normal DB 601a production engines without any special cooling, only with the reduced drag from the normal Jumo 210G to the DB 601a.

The Bf 110C4 gained 90 km/h from the Bf 110B to the Bf 110C4.
The Fw 187 was aerodynamacly more efficient then the Bf 110, so the estimated gain from 545km/h (V4) to 615 km/h (FW 187B with DB 601A engines at 5 km altitude) is more then realistic!

The A0 as preproduction a/c reached 525km/h with normal Jumo 210g engines full ammo and fuel.
The A0 based on the V3 and was a little bit more conserative on the cooling side then the V4

 

[stona]

Oct 1935.

Fixing this problem requires nothing more then simple math and common sense. 100 Fw-187s (per month) require 200 additional engines plus spares. Genshagen engine factory funding must be restored to the full RM 50 million.

Pie in the sky.

Steve

 

[stona]

This is simply bogus!

The original concept RüstflugzeugII/III was a heavy fighter to escort Bombers!

The Luftwaffe's Tactical Guidelines for the Rustungsflugzeug II (1932)

Role:a) two seat fighter
b)reconnaissance
c) light bomber
No Engines: 1
Crew: 2 men

The Luftwaffe's Tactical Guidelines for the Rustungsflugzeug III (1934)

Role: Heavy fighter
No. Engines: 1-2
Crew: 2-4 men

I can't be bothered to type out the entire specifications (armament,ordnance capacity,speed,endurance etc) but neither of these looks anything like the Fw 187. The aircraft that got accepted was a compromise between the two requirements worked out by Lusser and Messerschmitt at Bayerische Flugzeugwerk in consultation with the RLM.
Ago,Dornier,Gotha,Heinkel,Focke-Wulf and Henschel all had a look at building a Zerstorer,two of them at least definitely built prototypes

Fw 187 may well have been a competitive heavy fighter had it been produced,despite your quoting of figures actual and theoretical we will never know,but it simply wasn't what the RLM was looking for.

I wonder if the two seat Fw 187 was an attempt to match the Luftwaffe "Heavy Fighter tactical Technical Requirements" of 1936.

Role: anti bomber escort and strategic reconnaissance,attack from behind,above and behind,below and behind.
Day/night capable
Take off and landing often at night

Secondary Role: strikes against enemy ground defences

Type: enclosed canopy,multi seat


In the quest for production capacity everyone has forgotten that Focke-Wulf built the Bf 110 too.

Steve

 

[davebender]

I'm under the impression the Fw-187 was designed during 1935. So 1935 specifications are what counts. If there are no 1935 specifications then we need to look at 1934. In any case 1932 is far too early.

What is so pie in the sky about investing an additional RM 30 million into DB601 engine production? During 1935 to 1937 Germany ordered 5 Hipper class heavy cruisers @ RM 85 million each plus 2 Bismarck class battleships @ about RM 190 million each plus dozens of destroyers @ RM 13 million each. Not to mention equipment and refurbished training facilities for 36 Heer divisions. Factories for DB601 engine production were a drop in the 1935 Wehrmacht budget of RM 4 billion (per Richard Gaettens).

 

[cimmex]

investing an additional RM 30 million into DB601 engine production? During 1935 to 1937 Germany ordered 5 Hipper class heavy cruisers @ RM 85 million each plus 2 Bismarck class battleships @ about RM 190 million each plus dozens of destroyers @ RM 13 million each. Not to mention equipment and refurbished training facilities for 36 Heer divisions. Factories for DB601 engine production were a drop in the 1935 Wehrmacht budget of RM 4 billion (per Richard Gaettens).

This was not an order from Germany but from the KM. Like in all nations the government distributed a certain amount of money to the armies, separated in Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and other divisions. The RLM can not take money from the KM to fund a aircraft motor project. Do you really think the Navy will give money to any Army project in the USA?
Cimmex

 

[stona]

I'm under the impression the Fw-187 was designed during 1935. So 1935 specifications are what counts. If there are no 1935 specifications then we need to look at 1934. In any case 1932 is far too early.(per Richard Gaettens).

The Luftwaffe didn't really have a clear practical idea what it was after,as reflected in both the multiplicity of prototypes ordered and the constant issuing of updated "Tactical Technical Requirements". If Focke-Wulf had started designing any aircraft in 1935 they would ignore the newer requirements issued in 1936 at their peril. There were also frequent development conferences between the various manufacturers and the RLM.

The pure Zerstorer concept dates to a study of tactics in an offensive air war by Luftwaffe command staff in 1934. It decided on a twin engined,multi seat aircraft,about the size of a light bomber with heavy armament. The guns would be fixed or rotating and the mounts or turrets would cover the air ahead of and above the aircraft and also have a limited lateral arc of fire. They would fly in close formation ahead of an attacking bomber force to clear a path. It is all very theoretical and vague but this is by no stretch of the imagination what some posters concept of a heavy fighter reflects. It is what,in theory,in 1934,the RLM wanted. What this aircraft would actually look like they clearly had no real idea.

Aircraft designs have to evolve. When the British Air Ministry decided,in April 1935 that it wanted a minimum of 6 and preferably 8 machine guns (spec 10/35) in the wings of its new fighters Supermarine adapted their design to incorporate them and Hawker,who were already building the wing for the "Hawker monoplane" altered the wing to comply and deleted the two proposed fuselage guns.
Incidentally it was at this early stage that it was recommended that production of both what was to be the Spitfire and Hurricane be prepared,before the prototypes had flown and more than a year before either actually went into production. The Air Ministry even had a plan to fall back on the Gloster F7/30 "If by some mischance they both should fail."
The British knew exactly what they wanted.

The two aircraft that we can be sure were developed as a result of the RLM's 1936 update were the Me 210 and Ar 240. Both these aircraft also had to incorporate the later update to requirements of October 1938.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

During the same time frame RLM funded two modern facilities for the production of Jumo 211 engines and funded two more at the start of WWII. Consequently Germany was awash in Jumo 211 engines by 1942 and actually had to scale back production.

Why not build the Kothen engine plant for Daimler-Benz rather then for Junkers? That should balance out engine supply and demand and it won't cost RLM a single additional pfennig.

Main Jumo 211 production facilities.
Junkers Engines - Jumo 211
Magdeburg. 24,267 engines July 1937 to Aug 1944.
Kothen. 20,911 engines 1938 to Feb 1944.
Leipzig. 17,032 engines 1942 to Aug 1944.
Stettin. 4,714 engines produced during 1942.
.....Stettin produced almost 400 engines per month. Twice the size of 1939 Genshagen all by itself!

 

[cimmex]

Why not build the Kothen engine plant for Daimler-Benz rather then for Junkers? That should balance out engine supply and demand and it won't cost RLM a single additional pfennig

Because the Jumo was a reliable bomber engine and at this time the RLM first aim was to built bombers. Offensive power was the doctrine. Fighters always were seen as defensive weapons.
Cimmex