1940: Luftwaffe's ideal heavy fighter?

[stona]

Because the Jumo was a reliable bomber engine and at this time the RLM first aim was to built bombers. Offensive power was the doctrine. Fighters always were seen as defensive weapons.
Cimmex

Yes,and this was the reason behind the zerstorer concept.

By 1934 the Luftwaffe was already planning for offensive operations. This came up at the Nuremberg trials as well. One of the charges faced by several defendants was "Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances." This is rather wide of the topic

Steve
Steve

 

[davebender]

So was the DB601 but WWII Germany didn't have enough DB601 engine production capacity to allow use of Daimler-Benz engines for bomber aircraft. Do-17, Do-217, He-111 and even the Ju-88 all had variants or prototypes powered by DB601 engines. Production cost wasn't an issue either. RLM paid slightly more for a Jumo 211 engine then for a DB601.

 

[cimmex]

Common thinking was: Jumos are bomber engines, DBs are fighter engines. Even in 1944 when the first rumours of the Fw190D arrived the fighter pilots they disliked the plane because of its bomber engine.
Cimmex

 

[stona]

Common thinking was: Jumos are bomber engines, DBs are fighter engines. Even in 1944 when the first rumours of the Fw190D arrived the fighter pilots they disliked the plane because of its bomber engine.
Cimmex

Sort of.
They were disappointed that the Jumo 213 only developed 1,750 hp which was less than they erroneously believed they got from the BMW 801 of the Anton. It didn't help that Tank himself visited III./JG 54 at Oldenburg and told them that the Dora was only an "emergency solution" until the Ta 152 came on line.
It is only fair to say that after the experienced pilots had flown the D-9 they changed their opinions of this superb aircraft.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Shortround6]

There was more than a little bit of empire building in the 3rd Reich. Who was "in" and who was "out" varied at times.
To get a really good idea of what was going on engine wise we need a time line of which engines (which models) were available WHEN AND when they were PROMISED AND how LATE they may have been.

DB and Jumo started work around the same time (corrections welcome) the Jumo 210 worked fairly well, The early 211 may have been down a bit in performance but I have read a little about how it was regarded. The DB 600 seems to have been a bit of a disappointment. Reasons aren't usually given. Just vague comments like "unsatisfactory" or "disappointing".
Both engines were evolving and even 1940-41 versions used different fuel systems (Jumo may have lead with fuel injection?) and supercharger impellers and volutes than the 1936-37 versions. Betting which company would have the superior product in 1941/42 back in 1937 may have been very difficult. How many times was DB late with promised improvements? Or planes had to operate at reduced power levels while problems with "production" engines were sorted out?
I am not saying Junkers did a better job overall, I don't know, but DB seems to have had enough problems that giving them the lion's share of the business might not have been the smart thing to do.

 

[stona]

DB seems to have had enough problems that giving them the lion's share of the business might not have been the smart thing to do.

I'm not particularly familiar with the technicalities of the various engines but having read the minutes of various meetings at the RLM pertaining to actually getting engines working in airframes I think that is true.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

One Kurfurst's web site he has a list of aircraft equipped with the DB 601N engine as of Jan 1st, 1941. it comes to 499 engines in USE.
The specification sheet on the same page is dated 1939. I don't know if they were producing the engine in small numbers while waiting for the 601E because of the 601N's need for 96 octane fuel or what the reason was but 500 in service engines over a year after the spec sheet is published says something about promises and deliveries.

Not to pick on DB alone, plenty of allied engine makers promised more power/earlier delivery than they actually achieved. Russians spent the entire war trying to get some of their engines to run right.

Good engines or good engine specifications at the end of the war don't tell us how the company was performing before the war.

Did Jumo engines have a longer overhaul life?

 

[davebender]

Why not let German aircraft designers decide which engine works best rather then dictating engine choice? I think men like Dr Tank and Professor Messerschmitt had a better grasp of aircraft engines then bureaucrats at RLM.

 

[stona]

Why not let German aircraft designers decide which engine works best rather then dictating engine choice? I think men like Dr Tank and Professor Messerschmitt had a better grasp of aircraft engines then bureaucrats at RLM.

But not of cooling them or providing enough oil pressure,particularly in the case of Messerschmitt

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

Why not let German aircraft designers decide which engine works best rather then dictating engine choice? I think men like Dr Tank and Professor Messerschmitt had a better grasp of aircraft engines then bureaucrats at RLM.

If they had a better grasp of aircraft engines they SHOULD HAVE BEEN DESIGNING AIRCRAFT ENGINES.

Airframe design and engine design were two different specialties. You also don't have the time to figure out which one is best by experience. It can take 4-6 years to get a new engine into production and 1-3 years just for a major revision.
You have to make educated guesses as to which paper or prototype engine has the best chance of success several years down the road.

Letting airframe makers get too involved leads to things like the DB 606/610 and the surface cooling fiascoes. The airframe makers want the lowest drag and weight and don't always understand what the achievable state of the art is in bearing technology, supercharger technology, or combustion chamber design. The engine makers themselves managed to screw up some of those. Expecting the airframe makers to understand the complexities of aircraft engine design and manufacturing is just too glib an answer. They had enough to do figuring out what air foils to use, what was needed for control surfaces and how it should be assembled.

It was the "bureaucrats" job in every country to sort out the "probable" from the "barley possible" to the "what were they smoking" proposals.

See the Douglas XP-48 and the Tucker XP-57 for a couple of the last category, and they got type numbers. One wonders what the "bureaucrats" turned down

 

[fastmongrel]

What was wrong with the XP-48 it would have been a world beater with its projected 525 mph top speed. Which is amazing with only 525 hp does that mean the Spitfire Mk1 would go 1,000 mph

 

[stona]

Don L will be happy to know that the Fw 187 wasn't a completely dead duck,even as late as 1942!

I stumbled accross the minutes of an RLM development meeting of 18 August 1942.

"Topic of heavy fighter/high speed bomber/night fighter using one standard type.
The Me 110,Me 210 with DB 601 and/or DB 603,Ar 240,Fw 187,He 219 and Ju 188 are discussed. The Ar 240 is dropped ( because it has the same performance as as the current Me 210).
In its current form the Fw 187 does not have sufficient range and payload and,due to its cockpit design,is ruled out as a nightfighter.

That's not my opinion but the opinion of the RLM in 1942.

There follows discussion of the pros and cons of the various types. The Me 210 is ruled out by Milch because it would need an entirely new canopy as a nightfighter. Friebel seems to have missed the point of the discussion and suggests the Me 210 as a Zerstorer and the He 219 as a nightfighter. Milch favours the Ju 188 as,unlike the He 219 which is only 20 Km/Hr faster,it could be built using existing facilities. At the end of all this the minute concludes,unsurprisingly,with.

"A decision is not reached."

Steve

 

[davebender]

Sounds like people attending the meeting were only interested in night fighter aircraft. No suggestion at all that it might be nice to have a long range day fighter with heavy firepower for operations over the Med, Bay of Biscay, Norway, intercepting enemy bombers during the daytime etc.

 

[tyrodtom]

In August of 42 Germany had yet to experience any serious daylight bomber raids from the Allies.
The 1000 bomber raid on Cologne in the night of late May, and the night firebombing of Hamburg in late July was probably pretty fresh on their minds.

They probably felt a immediate need for more and better nightfighters.

 

[Shortround6]

If they were looking for a common airframe for all three roles and a particular airframe cannot perform one of the roles, it is OUT, no matter how NICE it would be to have a second airframe for that role.

 

[stona]

Well the topic was for a heavy fighter/high speed bomber/and nightfighter using one type for all three roles.
This harks back (with the obvious exception of the nightfighter) to those earlier requirements of 1932/34.

The minutes are too long too type here but though no decision was reached the Me 210 was clearly the favourite in a Zerstorer role,but doesn't appear to be considered as a nightfighter.Friebel may not have been alone in missing the point of the meeting.

By this time "Zerstorer" and "heavy fighter" have become interchangeable terms. The original intention of a multi crewed turret fighter clearing a path for the bombers is long gone.
The He 219 was considered an ideal nightfighter but too "luxurious" (not my translation,maybe "extravagant") to be a zerstorer!

Interestingly at a meeting with Milch a month later (9/9/42) an Oberstleutnant Peterson reports to the Generalfeldmarschall that Messerschmitt will deliver 210 Me 210s with DB 603 engines by mid January 1943. These were presumably to be Zerstorer because Milch responds that the Me 410 is being considered primarily as a day bomber against England and that major airframe modifications for its use as a heavy fighter are unacceptable.

This is typical of the stop/go and on/off nature of RLM procurement.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Here we go again. Mediocre in every role and world class at nothing. That's not the way to win a war.

 

[stona]

Some aircraft at this time performed multiple roles very well. The de Havilland Mosquito springs to mind.

Steve

 

[Tante Ju]

Here we go again. Mediocre in every role and world class at nothing. That's not the way to win a war.

The Ju 88 was the answer. Frankly I cannot get why they even bothered with smaller Zestorers. The Ju 88 was already in production better in every role - just fit the DB 603s destined for the 410s and you are set.

 

[davebender]

Ju-88 is a possible answer for the night fighter role. It cannot compare with the Fw-187 as a long range day fighter. So there you go. If one aircraft must be eliminated then eliminate the Me-110. Ju-88 will be the night fighter. Fw-187 will be the long range day fighter and photo recon aircraft.

This plan fits historical German aircraft engine availability very well. Fw-187 would get DB601 engines historically reserved for Me-110 program. Germany was awash in Jumo 211 engines so there is no problem with increasing Ju-88 airframe production.