1940: Luftwaffe's ideal heavy fighter?

[The Basket]

Ju 88 make a fine heavy fighter. So job sorted.

Fw 190 is not a Spitfire rival as the top speed of the prototype is quite disappointing in the early days.

It's simply developed as a fighter with a different engine.

 

[davebender]

I disagree. Ju-88 is too big to turn burn during daytime aerial combat even when powered by Jumo 213 engines. Mosquito and Me-410 are better but they also are too big to mix it up with enemy fighter aircraft during the daytime.

P-38 is superior to all of the above light bombers and Fw-187 would have been superior to the P-38 if placed into mass production.

 

[cimmex]

Late war Fw-187s powered by 1,800 hp DB605AS engines or 2,000 hp DB605D engines would probably fly rings around a Fw-190D and the Falke has a lot more endurance. So if Germany builds 20,000 Fw-187s ILO 20,000 Fw-190s the Luftwaffe comes out ahead.

"fly rings around a Fw-190D", not really, you know you need more than three times the speed of a straight flying plane to turn a ring around
Cimmex

 

[Shortround6]

Not necessarily true. Initial Fw-190 design proposals were powered by Daimler Benz engines. The Fw-190 could have been powered by the DB601 or, better yet, DB603 from the beginning.

However this is somewhat beside the point. Late war Fw-187s powered by 1,800 hp DB605AS engines or 2,000 hp DB605D engines would probably fly rings around a Fw-190D and the Falke has a lot more endurance. So if Germany builds 20,000 Fw-187s ILO 20,000 Fw-190s the Luftwaffe comes out ahead.

Except the Germans can't build FW 187 on a one for one basis instead of the Fw 190D. some where between one to two or one and half to two. 10,000-15,000 Fw 187 instead of 20,000 Fw 190s.
And once again you bring in the DB603 early. A 1941 DB603 would not have made the power the 1943 DB603 did but weighed almost the same.

 

[stona]

Fw 190 is not a Spitfire rival as the top speed of the prototype is quite disappointing in the early days.

Did you actually bother reading any of my posts. It is admittedly my opinion but supported by not only by quotes from Kurt Tank but other references. What is the basis of your opinion?

When the Fw 190 entered service it quite simply swept the Spitfire V from the skies of continental Europe. The initial performance of the prototypes is irrelevant.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Not necessarily true. Initial Fw-190 design proposals were powered by Daimler Benz engines. The Fw-190 could have been powered by the DB601 or, better yet, DB603 from the beginning.

Noone has ever produced any evidence that there was any an intention to produce the Fw 190 with anything other than a radial engine. If anyone can produce one of these "initial proposals" in contemporary documents I'd love to see them. It may be that one of the sketches submitted initially to the RLM included a Daimler Benz engine but the one accepted featured the BMW 139. The contract issued for the three prototypes by the RLM,incidentally the first use of the RLM number 190, included this radial engine.
There was never any chance of a Daimler Benz powered Fw 190.

Tank again.

"We chose an air cooled radial engine for the new fighter for two reasons. Firstly because such engines were more rugged and could survive more punishment than the liquid cooled types and secondly,because the BMW company was bench running prototypes of a new engine,the 1,550 hp BMW 139,which developed somewhat more power than any liquid cooled engine we had been offered."

And

"Some people have suggested that I had to fight some kind of battle with the RLM to get them to accept the idea of a radial engined fighter. That might make a good story but it is not history. In fact there was quite a large body of opinion in favour of such a fighter for the Luftwaffe."

When the Fw 190 was conceived there were two companies in Germany producing large radial engines. "Bramo" at Berlin-Spandau and BMW in Munich.

As for the possibility of developing the "Dora" without the preceding "Antons",that's ridiculous. The initial prototypes were bullt from A series airframes!

Surely the Fw 187 died because it didn't match an RLM requirement. Focke-Wulf's efforts to shoe horn in the extra crew man to meet the requirement was probably too late. There were many in the RLM who had already decided to continue with the Bf 110.

Cheers

Steve

 

[davebender]

Fw-190D didn't enter production until August 1944. By that late date your argument hardly matters as RAF Bomber Command has flattened German hydrogenation plants that produce aviation gasoline.

 

[The Basket]

Did you actually bother reading any of my posts. It is admittedly my opinion but supported by not only by quotes from Kurt Tank but other references. What is the basis of your opinion?

When the Fw 190 entered service it quite simply swept the Spitfire V from the skies of continental Europe. The initial performance of the prototypes is irrelevant.

Cheers

Steve

No I didn't bother.

 

[stona]

No I didn't bother.

At least that's an honest reply

Steve

 

[DonL]

The very huge mistake was to waste the potential and experience of FW between 1938-1941!

To make a clean analyse about the german a/c industry you should all take a close look.

As I described FW had a great potential, because they were successful between 1933-1939 to gain money and experience to produce several different a/c's without major help from the LW.

Also Dornier, Junkers and Gotha were successfully "mass" producing a/c's. Heinkel was always a problem child because the company and it's development department danced on every single advertisement of any a/c. Heinkel could develop good a/c's and also produce a good quality but they didn't learn till 1943 to produce in quantity, because Heinkel has no interest getting experience to mass production. His devellopment department was the star and bad tongues about Heinkel claim no a/c from Heinkel except the He 111 was realy developed to the end, because the development department was always busy with the next project.
BF /Messerschmitt were realy noobs in mass production compare to Junkers, FW, Dornier and Gotha with mass production, because they only had the Me 108 as their "only" produced a/c from 1936- 1940 with something about 600 a/c's in 5 years, before the orders from the RLM kicked in. To my opinion this was a mistake, to gave a newbie two huge orders about important war a/c's.

Also I see the story, that the FW 190 was an answer to the Spitfire as great myth!
The FW 190 was given to FW with no advertisement. It is untrue that there was was an advertisement or comparasion between the FW 190 and the He 100. The RLM realy know that one of it's important a/c company's has no order and nothing to produce then trainers!
The first wood models of the FW 190 were existing 1937, at this time it wasn't decided to built with the DB 601 or with a new radial engine.
After the takeover of Bramo from BMW (1938 ) and the existing development first of the BMW 139 and later the BMW 801 the decision was to the radial engine. The first prototype flew summer 1938! What all this have to do with the Spitfire is to me a myth.
At summer 1938 also the first prototype of the Bf 109E with DB 601 was flying and the germans couldn't realy estimate there fighter power potential under the terms of mass production. The FW 190 was a child to get the potential of the FW company and the BMW/Bramo company in mass production for a real important a/c. From FW the FW 190 could be produced since 1938, but the development of the engine wasn't ready.

So here was a lot of waste production capacity, because the trainers could be produced from second rated company's and so a Fw 187 mass produced from beginning 1939 would had enough manpower and experience.

So my statement that the RLM could get at least 1500 FW 187 from 1939-1940 (end) is still standing, because the limiting factor wouldn't be the production capacity (experience and man power), it would only be the material (engines and aluminum).

A mass produced FW 187 at 1939 would had more performance, a more experienced mass production from capacity and man power and more developmet potential at the fighter ability compare to the Bf 110 and later the Bf 109!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Fw 190 is not a Spitfire rival as the top speed of the prototype is quite disappointing in the early days.

Who cares about a prototype? A prototype is in development and not operational.

When the Fw 190 became operational, it pretty much took control of the skies, and was superior to the Spit V. If I recall correctly, the only thing the Spit had an advantage over the 190 in, was turn radius.

 

[cimmex]

A mass produced FW 187 at 1939 would had more performance, a more experienced mass production from capacity and man power and more developmet potential at the fighter ability compare to the Bf 110 and later the Bf 109!

But the FW187 didn't meet the RLM requirements, why the RLM should place an order for 1500 planes? There are certain rules for offer and order in bussiness.
Cimmex

 

[stona]

I guess DonL didn't read my posts regarding the perceived link between the Fw 190 and Spitfire,at least in Kurt Tank's mind either. The new specification was not issued as a reaction to the Spitfire in service and I certainly never suggested that. The Germans were well aware of the Spitfire and rumours about it were rife in German aeronautical circles.
People did not operate in vacuums!
For example,in October of 1937, Hornchurch played host to a visit by senior Luftwaffe figures including the World War I ace Ernst Udet. It is recounted how during this visit, that before astonished RAF pilots, a senior RAF brass hat calmly ran over the finer points of the new, and secret, reflector gun sight with the German party.


If anyone can find the RLM number 190 before the contract issued for the three prototypes in 1938 let's see it. Focke-Wulf may have had models of prospective designs in 1937,and some may have featured in line engines,but these were not Fw 190s. The decision to build the Fw 190 with a radial engine was not taken until 1938,but there was never any option for a different type of power plant.

The first Fw 190 prototype did not fly in the summer of 1938,that may be a typo. Fw 190 V1,Werk. Nr. 0001 and with the civil registration D-OPZE flew,with Hans Sander at the controls, on Ist June 1939. The second prototype (FO+LZ) didn't fly until October 1939.
The first prototype fitted the BMW 801 C engine was the V5k (k for kleine flugel,this aircraft retained the shorter wing of the earlier prototypes) which flew in the spring of 1940.
Another oft repeated myth is that the Fw 190 influenced the design of the Typhoon but as you can see above the prototypes of the two types flew at almost exactly the same time,the Typhoon in February 1940, making them contemporaries.

As for problems with the type,these are well documented. In 1938 the RLM asked Focke-Wulf to speed up development of the Fw 190 because of problems with the Bf 109 as it was integrated into Luftwaffe fighter groups. No aircraft enters the hurly burly of service life without problems.

Focke-Wulf were not just building trainers before the war. The Fw 44 was a successful trainer. The Fw 56 probably influenced the Luftwaffe's decision to persue the dive bomber concept.It was flown by Tank's friend Udet,to demonstrate the concept. Focke-Wulf did not bid for the contract that resulted in the Ju 87. Then there was the Fw 58,Fw 159,Fw 189 and to top it all the Fw 200.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the Fw 187 did not meet the RLMs "zerstorer" specification. Not only that but Focke-Wulf did build an aircraft to meet that specification. This was the Fw 57. This,along with the Hs 124 from Henschel,LOST to Messerschmitt's Bf 110.
Here it is.

Any attempt to convert the Fw 187 into a two seat Zerstorer was too late. The RLM,like an oil tanker,changed direction slowly and the Bf 110 was already in production.

Steve

 

[CobberKane]

The DeHavilland Hornet which had as slim and slender an airframe as the Fw 187 proved those seeming d restrictions can be overcome.
Eric Brown stated that it was the airplane that he enjoyed flying the most. The FW 187 should have had similar capabilities.
Other fighters in this class are the Mitsubishi Ki-83 and Grumman F7F Tigercat.

Well, the Hornet was certainly an impressive fighter, as was the Bearcat, and the Fw 187 seems to have a legion of fans who can quote perfomance and production cost figures ad infinitum. Still, it seems to me the idea of a twin engine fighter that could compete with the best single engine opposition was always a holy grail that was never really achieved. Maybe the P-38 did it for the last year of the war, which confirms Kelly Johnson as a genius in my books but what else? The Bf 110 was never a match for contemporary fighter opposition. The Whirlwind was maybe, but the Typhoon could do it all better. Me 210s and 410s got chewed up when confronted by single engine opposition. The Fw 187 looks nice but never came close to being tested in serial front line production and I just can't see any reason to believe it would have been 'the one' that proved the concept when all the others failed. I'm sure the Hornet and Tigercat would have been great in the Pacific against an enemy that was struggling to keep up in the arms race, but if the realities of war had not applied they would have been facing aircraft equivelent to Bearcats, Furies and Spitefuls.
None of this is to deny that the heavy fighter wasn't a useful beast as a bomber destroyer etc, but single engine fighters ruled the roost from the Eindecker to the jet age. There has to have been a reason for that.

 

[stona]

Oddly enough I've just been having a quick flick through Mankau's Bf 110 tome. He comes to a similar conclusion regarding twin engined fighters or zestorer designed in the mid 1930s.

The solution he offers is to abandon the Bf 110 altogether once the Fw 190 comes online and concentrate on producing more Fw 190s,an aircraft that proved itself very capable in the fighter,zestorer and fighter bomber roles.

It's difficult to argue against his conclusion.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

Hi, Steve,
How does Mankau feels about a 1000-1200 HP fighter contesting the RAF over mainland Britain (nit just over Kent) in 1940?
Further, discussion/comparison of the Fw-190 and Bf-110, for 1941, is a non issue? Same about Fw-187 and Fw-190?

Well, the Hornet was certainly an impressive fighter, as was the Bearcat, and the Fw 187 seems to have a legion of fans who can quote perfomance and production cost figures ad infinitum. Still, it seems to me the idea of a twin engine fighter that could compete with the best single engine opposition was always a holy grail that was never really achieved. Maybe the P-38 did it for the last year of the war, which confirms Kelly Johnson as a genius in my books but what else?

Hi,
maybe the appeal of the P-38 was to do what ever the best fighter could do, but do it 600 miles from the base? Something that it took 2 years for an single engined fighter to achieve?

The Bf 110 was never a match for contemporary fighter opposition. The Whirlwind was maybe, but the Typhoon could do it all better.

Bf-110 was cold meat on the table, when flown on bomber speeds altitudes. So was the P-51. But an Bf-110, during BoB, flying at figher speeds altitudes? Comparison between Whirlwind and Typhoon is really humoruos, it took Hawker/Gloster/Napier until 1943 to make Typhoon a workable non self destructing plane; in 1941 Whirlwind was there, Typhoon was not.

Me 210s and 410s got chewed up when confronted by single engine opposition.

So were the Yaks, Zeros in 1944 etc.

The Fw 187 looks nice but never came close to being tested in serial front line production and I just can't see any reason to believe it would have been 'the one' that proved the concept when all the others failed.

As above, we might list many single engined planes that got shot in drowes. 'All others failed' is a sweeping generalization.

I'm sure the Hornet and Tigercat would have been great in the Pacific against an enemy that was struggling to keep up in the arms race, but if the realities of war had not applied they would have been facing aircraft equivelent to Bearcats, Furies and Spitefuls.

That would've be an awesome sight.

None of this is to deny that the heavy fighter wasn't a useful beast as a bomber destroyer etc, but single engine fighters ruled the roost from the Eindecker to the jet age. There has to have been a reason for that.

Single engined fighter and heavy fighter might apply for the same planes, if one wants his fighters have some real footprint. Check out US planes of ww2. As for single engined fighters ruling, you might want to check out the P-38, F-4/14/15/18/22, Tornado, Mig-25/29/31, Su-27, Tornado, Eurofighter, Rafale...

 

[stona]

Hi, Steve,
How does Mankau feels about a 1000-1200 HP fighter contesting the RAF over mainland Britain (nit just over Kent) in 1940?
Further, discussion/comparison of the Fw-190 and Bf-110, for 1941, is a non issue? Same about Fw-187 and Fw-190?

The Luftwaffe never wanted a twin engined fighter like the Fw 187. It was wed to the "zerstorer" concept and Focke-Wulf's offering was the Fw 57 (I suppose technically a "kamfzerstorer" with its turret) which lost out to the Bf 110. I'm sure that most RAF pilots would have been happy to see the 1800 hp Fw 57 over Britain.
The conversion of the Fw 187 into a two seater smacks of the same sort of desperation that Tank showed when trying to save the Ta 154 by developing it in a "Mistel" combination. Noone likes to see their project bite the dust,there are commercial consequences which don't disappear just because there's a war on.

A far simpler and very much cheaper method of deploying a competitive fighter over mainland Britain in 1940 would have been to develop the already existing drop tank technology for the Bf 109.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Cheers

Steve

 

[DonL]

What was the thread title?

Ideal heavy fighter of the LW 1940!

The Luftwaffe never wanted a twin engined fighter like the Fw 187

Any serious sources for this claim?

Destroyer Advertisement of 1936!
-heavy fighter
-long range fighter
-long range escort fighter

This advertisement comes from Wever and Wimmer far more experienced men then Göring, Stumpf or Jeschonnek!
The replacement of Wimmer with Ernst Uder was a big mistake, but also Udet thought that the Bf 110 could not achieve the whole advertisement and ordered the FW 187 prototypes and later the preproduction series FW 187A and the FW 187B. He was overruled from Göring!

I guess DonL didn't read my posts regarding the perceived link between the Fw 190 and Spitfire,at least in Kurt Tank's mind either.

There was no link between the development of the FW 190 and the Spitfire, no serious source accept the reminds of Kurt Tank make such statements!

The first Fw 190 prototype did not fly in the summer of 1938,that may be a typo. Fw 190 V1,Werk. Nr. 0001 and with the civil registration D-OPZE flew,with Hans Sander at the controls, on Ist June 1939. The second prototype (FO+LZ) didn't fly until October 1939.
The first prototype fitted the BMW 801 C engine was the V5k (k for kleine flugel,this aircraft retained the shorter wing of the earlier prototypes) which flew in the spring of 1940.
Another oft repeated myth is that the Fw 190 influenced the design of the Typhoon but as you can see above the prototypes of the two types flew at almost exactly the same time,the Typhoon in February 1940, making them contemporaries.

Sorry my claim about the first flight was a typo! Your statement is correct!
But the oldest drawing of the FW 190A dated 18.07.1938, also a 1:1 blank was existind in summer 1938 and the decision was made to use a radial engine.

All this has nothing to do with the thread title and your claim that it is impossible to produce 1500 heavy fighter (FW 187) till the end of 1940.
As I showed, your claim is wrong.

The issue twin engined heavy fighter:

The FW 187 proved it's performance capacity at several testflight's and the three preproduction a/c's were stationed at Norway Denmark and Bremen. The FW 187A with Jumo 210 engines as preproduction a/c was as fast as the Bf 110C2 with DB 601 engines.
Also the FW 187 V6 was the prototype to get the world speed record to Focker Wulf. The FW engineers estimated that the FW 187 can be faster then Me 209 world record plane. There is no doubt on the aerodynamik excellence of the FW 187.

The FW 187 was between the lines (that makes it special), it was larger then the Westland Whirlwind and was developed and built from the scratch to the 35Liter 1000PS engine advertisement of the LW (DB 601 and Jumo 211). It carrys a lot more internal fuel then the Whirlwind and had a very good payload and a wing loading near the same as the Bf 109, with a better rolling and much more speed. This was shown from the comparation testflights at Rechlin September/Oktober 1938.
To my informations the Whirlwind couldn't carry the RR Merlin without major reconstruction!
The FW 187 was not significant smaller then the P38 but had a lot less weight with the same engine power and a much better wing loading.
So the FW 187 promise a much better performance with near the same payload and internal fuel then the P38, with the benefits of two seats.

Oddly enough I've just been having a quick flick through Mankau's Bf 110 tome. He comes to a similar conclusion regarding twin engined fighters or zestorer designed in the mid 1930s.

The solution he offers is to abandon the Bf 110 altogether once the Fw 190 comes online and concentrate on producing more Fw 190s,an aircraft that proved itself very capable in the fighter,zestorer and fighter bomber roles.

It's difficult to argue against his conclusion.

That depends on the mission. If you want a LW for Barbarossa, Mankau's conclusion is right, with the hint side that the FW 190A wasn't mass produced before 1942 and at that time the FW 187 would be mass produced at the third year with DB 601E engines.

If you want a long range or long range escort fighter and this missions, you are in need of a twin heavy fighter at 1940, also 1942.
The LW hadn't a single engined long range fighter till the Tank 152H10 with an internal tank volume of 1000 Liters.
At 1940-1943 there is no possibility to have such a fighter because at this time the Jumo 213 and DB 603 realy kicked in at mass production and performance! And I have told enough of the performance of the FW 187!

 

[tomo pauk]

The Luftwaffe never wanted a twin engined fighter like the Fw 187. It was wed to the "zerstorer" concept and Focke-Wulf's offering was the Fw 57 (I suppose technically a "kamfzerstorer" with its turret) which lost out to the Bf 110. I'm sure that most RAF pilots would have been happy to see the 1800 hp Fw 57 over Britain.
The conversion of the Fw 187 into a two seater smacks of the same sort of desperation that Tank showed when trying to save the Ta 154 by developing it in a "Mistel" combination. Noone likes to see their project bite the dust,there are commercial consequences which don't disappear just because there's a war on.

A far simpler and very much cheaper method of deploying a competitive fighter over mainland Britain in 1940 would have been to develop the already existing drop tank technology for the Bf 109.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

Cheers

Steve

Sorry for not being 100% precise; by a '1000-1200 HP fighter' I was pointing out towards the single engined fighter's abilities.
I do agree that a drop tank for the Emil in BoB would've posed a major boost for the LW, and a threat for the RAF.

 

[CobberKane]

Hi, Steve,
How does Mankau feels about a 1000-1200 HP fighter contesting the RAF over mainland Britain (nit just over Kent) in 1940?
Further, discussion/comparison of the Fw-190 and Bf-110, for 1941, is a non issue? Same about Fw-187 and Fw-190?



Hi,
maybe the appeal of the P-38 was to do what ever the best fighter could do, but do it 600 miles from the base? Something that it took 2 years for an single engined fighter to achieve?



Bf-110 was cold meat on the table, when flown on bomber speeds altitudes. So was the P-51. But an Bf-110, during BoB, flying at figher speeds altitudes? Comparison between Whirlwind and Typhoon is really humoruos, it took Hawker/Gloster/Napier until 1943 to make Typhoon a workable non self destructing plane; in 1941 Whirlwind was there, Typhoon was not.



So were the Yaks, Zeros in 1944 etc.



As above, we might list many single engined planes that got shot in drowes. 'All others failed' is a sweeping generalization.



That would've be an awesome sight.



Single engined fighter and heavy fighter might apply for the same planes, if one wants his fighters have some real footprint. Check out US planes of ww2. As for single engined fighters ruling, you might want to check out the P-38, F-4/14/15/18/22, Tornado, Mig-25/29/31, Su-27, Tornado, Eurofighter, Rafale...

Hello Tomo,
Re your comments, my reputation as a P-38 hater should be firmly established by now. But without rehashing all my previous rantings on the subject, no the P-38 did not do whatever the 'best fighter could do'. The 'best fighters' were 109Gs and Fw190s in the ETC. The P-38 had the range to get to them when contemporary single engine designs did not, but in combat it struggled until the L models arrived – by which time single engine designs were doing the same job for much less cost.
The BF110got chewed up in the BoB. The Bf109 did not. For much of the time they were used for the same role so clearly the 110 was inferior to it's single engine opposition. Regarding my comparison between the Whirlwind and the Typhoon, I'm happy for you that you smile so easily but my point was that when the Whirlwind was withdrawn from service it was replaced by the Typhoon, not an improved Whirlwind or some other twin engine design.
I mentioned that 210s and 410 got chewed up by single engine opposition and you noted that so did Yaks and late war zeros. How is that relevant? Yaks and Zeros took a hammering at different times in the war because they faced superior opposition, but they also had their periods of ascendency. Name me a twin engine fighter that dominated single engine opposition for any period during the war? The only example I can think of that comes close would be the P-38 in the Pacific against Japanese Zeros and Oscars that were well behind contemporary German fighters in those areas where the lightning held an advantage.
If my comment that all attempts to create a competitive twin engine design during the war were 'what ifs' or failures is a sweeping generalisation, please list the successes. No, wait – I'll do it for you:
1. P-38
2. Daylight.
I think the twin engine heavy fighter was a useful concept for most air forces, particularly in areas like bomber destroyer and night fighter, but the reality of the twin engine fighter that could match it with the best single engine opposition in combat just didn't happen.