1940: Luftwaffe's ideal heavy fighter?

[wuzak]

IIRC, Do-335 was flying 750-760 km/h, and Me-410 was managing 620-630 km/h on the same engine HP. So maybe going for the hi risk / low risk would be the way? Hi risk involving a tandem configuration, low risk being a 'classic' twin (Fw-187 with 'proper' engines).
BTW, in order to solve the weapon firing time issue, we might go for an 8 LMG Falke (and the tandem), with, say, 600 rounds per gun?

I've proposed this some time ago, basically the wing planform (but not the thickness) is from Do-17, and the engines are Jumo 211:

Why not a single engined pusher or twin engine pusher with co-axial counter rotating props? This is the way Dornier were heading late in teh war.

But they had developed the Göppingen Gö 9 to test the feasibility of the fuselage mounted engine with prop driven by extension shaft.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

IMO development of the Do-215 into a proper night fighter aircraft for mass production makes the most sense. It was already used by the early war night fighter force including tests for development of AI radar. Perhaps most important of all, the Do-17 ended production at the beginning of 1941. So 1941 Germany has a Do-17 / Do-215 assembly line all tooled up and ready to go.

Modify the Do-215 fuselage to optimize for night fighter performance and restart production. The plexiglass nose isn't necessary. Neither is the bulge on the bottom containing a bomb bay and defensive weapon position. That should improve aerodynamics a bit. Crew can be reduced to two. You can even consider tricycle landing gear which pilots preferred for easier taxiing at night. 1941 Germany had plenty of 1,340 hp Jumo 211F engines to power the new Do-215C night fighter aircraft.

That takes care of the night fighter requirement. An upgraded Fw-187B powered by DB601E engines and armed with four MG151/20 will continue to dominate daytime air battles.

 

[stona]

Looks like about 1,500 long range figher aircraft to me

I know this is a fantasy thread but a slight reality check might be useful.

The total Luftwaffe establishment of ALL combat aircraft in June 1940 was 3,327

In 1939 the total fighter production (all types) was 1,856 and in 1940 this figure was 3,106. Even sacrificing the very useful Bf 110 there is simply no way you are going to get 1,500 of any "uber" fighter produced.

Cheers

Steve

 

[DonL]

@ Stona

please can you explain why this is for you a fantasy thread from the technical side?
We are talking about a full developed a/c with preproduction a/c's and all toolings for an assembly line mass production were ready at 1939!
What is here fiction or fantasy?

The Do17Z/Do 215B5 (Kauz III) was even in mass production at 1939.

In 1939 the total fighter production (all types) was 1,856 and in 1940 this figure was 3,106. Even sacrificing the very useful Bf 110 there is simply no way you are going to get 1,500 of any "uber" fighter produced.

Your estimation isn't correct!
From the Bf 110 were produced from 01.01-1939 till 31.12.1940, 1240 Bf 110 modells with DB 601 engines.

The Production costs of the Bf 110C= 210.000,-RM (inclusive engines)
The Production costs of the FW 187 = 140000,-RM (inclusive DB engines)
The Production costs of the Bf 109E = 86.000,-RM (inclusive engine)

So it is not so much fiction or fantasy to produce something between 1300-1500 FW 187 till the end of 1940, if beginning the mass production early 1939.

If you have an other opinion, then please post with serious sources.

 

[stona]

If you have an other opinion, then please post with serious sources.

Total fighter production for 1939/40 was 5,962 so your unreferenced Bf 110 figures are possible in this context.

Don't overestimate German production potential either. In 1939 planned production for all aircraft types was a staggering 26,665 aircraft and they actually produced 8,295.

My source is R J Overy "German Aircraft Production 1939-1942". You may have heard of him.

Don't be patronising. Many people here have plenty of references.

Steve

 

[DonL]

My sources are:

Focke-Wulf Fw 187. Der vergessene Hochleistungsjäger von Dietmar Hermann und Peter Petrick
(Focke-Wulf Fw 187. An Illustrated History von Dietmar Hermann und Peter Petrick)

Messerschmidt Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410. Die Messerschmitt-Zerstörer und ihre Konkurrenten von Heinz Mankau und Peter Petrick
(Messerschmitt Bf 110/Me 210/Me 410: An Illustrated History von Heinz Mankau)

Flugzeugindustrie und Luftrüstung in Deutschland 1918-1945 von Lutz Budraß

Die Luftwaffe im Kampf um die Luftherrschaft von Ernst Stilla
(The German Air Force in the battle for air supremacy by Ernst Stilla)
Major influences on the defeat of the Luftwaffe in the defensive at the west and
over Germany in World War II with special reference to factors
"Air defense", "Research and development" and "human resources".


As you can see from my above post, the FW 187 had less production costs and less needed man hours to produce.
So it is not unimpossible to produce 100-200 more FW 187 a/c's in the same timeline as the Bf 110, to me this not fiction or fantasy!

 

[davebender]

I've never seen a proposed production cost for the Fw-187. Is this an RLM estimate or a Focke Wulf estimate?

 

[DonL]

No given from Dieter Hermann (Focke-Wulf Fw 187. An Illustrated History von Dietmar Hermann und Peter Petrick), from original documents from Focker Wulf after the Preproduction-Serie A0, estimated for mass production with DB engines

 

[davebender]

If production is established @ 100 aircraft per month you will get there in a couple years. It works the same way for any other newly introduced weapons system.

For comparison purposes....
The more expensive Ju-88A had an initital production goal of 300 aircraft per month.
.....65 per month. Central Division (i.e. Junkers).
.....80 per month. Division I (Henschel, Arado and AEG).
.....70 per month. Division II (Heinkel and Dornier).
.....35 per month. Division III (Dornier Friedrichshafen)
.....50 per month. Division IV (ATG and Siebel).

 

[davebender]

Then it's the price Focke Wulf is charging RLM.

That sounds pretty solid to me. Thanks for the information.

 

[stona]

You are taking a narrow view of aircraft production.
Imagine the ramifications of cancelling or not adopting Bf 110 production and instead producing the Focke Wulf alternative. I don't think it is a viable alternative but that's another question!

The huge expansion of the Regensburg plant over several years may not have been on the same scale. Bf 109 production could have stayed at Augsburg. Any alteration in aircraft production has unexpected consequences as the effects spread through the industry like ripples on a pond.
This would have caused unpredictable consequences later in the war.

By whom and where would the Fw 187 be produced?
Could the company have expanded like Messerschmitt? Skilled labour was not available it had to be trained via various apprenticeship programs. Housing,schools,infrastructure must be built. This doesn't happen overnight. Messerschmitt started their huge expansion on the back of the Bf 108,Bf 109 and Bf 110 in 1936 nearly a year before the Fw 187 prototype flew.
There were well documented problems with the various prototypes.The first limited production run wasn't until 1939
How could 1500 of the type possibly have been ready in 1940.

 

[Tante Ju]

On the production note, production can be simply outsourced to other companies, as happened with 109 and 110 production. Arado, Erla, Ago, Fieseler were all engaged Messerschmitt production in 1940, probably because Mtt AG's capacity was simply too small.

 

[stona]

On the production note, production can be simply outsourced to other companies, as happened with 109 and 110 production. Arado, Erla, Ago, Fieseler were all engaged Messerschmitt production in 1940, probably because Mtt AG's capacity was simply too small.

To produce 1500 of a new fighter which first flew in 1939 by 1940?

Those licensees were producing Bf 109s. Do you mean to not only abandon the Bf 110 but also to radically reduce production of the Luftwaffe's only competitive single engined fighter as well to get the precious Fw 187 produced?

There is only so much production capacity within the aircraft industry. This illustrates my point about adopting a broader view. All these types of decisions are inter-linked.

Let's get some perspective on the numbers.The Bf 110 first flew in 1936 and entered limited production in April 1938. It was already decided in November 1936 that production would be shared between Messerschmitt at Augsburg and Gotha. This is well before the Fw 187 first flew.
In September 1939 there were still less than 100 serviceable Bf 110s in three Geschwader (1.(Z)/LG 1,I./ZG 1 and I./ZG 76) involved in the Polish campaign.(Vasco) They'd missed Spain altogether.

You guys want to flick a switch in 1938/9 and have 1500 aircraft in service by 1940. It simply wouldn't have been possible.

Steve

 

[davebender]

Who said they would be?

Fw-187 production would roughly parallel Ju-88 production but at 1/3rd the monthly rate (100 rather then 300)

69 Ju-88s produced during 1939.
2,208 Ju-88s produced during 1940.
2,780 Ju-88s produced during 1941.
3,094 Ju-88s produced during 1942.

Projected Fw-187 production.
23 during 1939.
736 during 1940.
927 during 1941.
1,031 during 1942.

Like everything else in WWII Germany, Fw-187 production would probably never catch up to rapidly expanding demand. However from 1940 onward there would be enough Fw-187s to make a significant contribution to the German war effort. Especially in areas like the Med and Bay of Biscay where aircraft endurance is so important.

 

[DonL]

How could 1500 of the type possibly have been ready in 1940

Who said they would be?

I said this and I have some very strong arguments for this thesis!

To produce 1500 of a new fighter which first flew in 1939 by 1940?

Wrong timeline! First flight of the FW 187 was 1937 and the FW 187 V4 which was tested against the Bf 110B at Rechlin was at September 1938! At this time no single Bf 110C with DB 601 engines was produced, only Bf 110 prototypes with DB 600 were in production!

The most Bf 110B were produced from Gotha and not from Messerschmitt Augsburg, because Gotha had first more experience with assemby lines through the Gotha Go 145 and second Messrschmitt was very busy with the learning of the assembly line production of the Bf 109!

To understand my statement/estimation, it is very important to know some details about german aircraft companys their experience with mass production/ assembly lines between 1933-1939 and how much experienced human resources they had.


Some Datas
Man Power of german a/c companys 1935 and 1938/39

Company 1935 1938/39
Junkers 9500 25.000
Dornier 7.000 14.100
Heinkel 7.600 18.300
Focke-Wulf 3.200 35.000
Messerschmitt 1500 27.300

As you see FW was the largest company from man power 1938/39 from all german a/c companys (even larger then Junkers), because FW was next to Junkers the only company which built 3 different aircrafts at assembly lines which huge success at germany and to foreign countrys (Fw 44, Fw 56, Fw 58 ). In contrast to Messerschmitt FW was very successfull between 1933 till 1939 to make money and research experience with mass production of their aircrafts. FW produced roughly 3000 a/c's between 1934-1939 against something about 800 to Messerschmitt at the same time.
Also Gotha was very experienced in mass production through the Gotha Go 145 and for Gotha it would be a very minor problem to retooling in perhaps 4-6 month to the FW 187. Anyway the most decisive issue is, that FW wasn't producing any important a/c at 1939 for the LW (only trainers) compare to Messerschmit, which were noobs with assembly lines and mass production and had to produce 2 very important a/c's. If you want you can get a huge potential at 1939/40/41 of human resources, experience and capacity to produce the FW 187!

Trainers can be produced from second rated a/c companys and the above facts are the main arguments why the RLM/LW wanted absolute FW to produce some important a/c! As I have described this in other threads this available resources were the main arguments for the FW 190 (together with the resources of BMW)!

To my personal estimation FW and Gotha can produce perhaps 1939 200 aircrafts and 1940 2000, if they will get the engines and the material, but there is no limit compare to the material on production capacity and human resources!

Do you mean to not only abandon the Bf 110 but also to radically reduce production of the Luftwaffe's only competitive single engined fighter as well to get the precious Fw 187 produced?

No, abandon the Bf 110 and produce with as much material as will be available without reducing the Bf 109!

There is only so much production capacity within the aircraft industry. This illustrates my point about adopting a broader view. All these types of decisions are inter-linked.

See my above statement!

Edit: What is realy important, FW had no major order from the LW and reached the largest man power 1939 without major help from the LW, till the FW 190 (only the trainers, since late 1939 the Bf 110, the FW 189 and the FW 200, which were niche aircrafts)!

 

[spicmart]

Whilst undeniably an interesting aircraft I have always thought the Fw 187 was probably rightly rejected on the grounds that it had little scope for further development.
I'm happy for the Fw 187 fans to correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it another case of shoehorning the smallest airframe around the then most powerful engines available?
(yes I know it didn't get the BD601 but even so....)

In contrast the Me 110 not only had room for the enormous quantities of electronic night-fighting kit - and a 3rd crew-man - that would be so useful to the LW later on but it made for (as best as I can tell) an excellent fast fighter-bomber.
Of course it was no nimble single-seat fighter....but then I suspect neither was the Fw 187 which, again as far as I can tell, had little room for a 2nd crew-man as it was nevermind hoping to fit radar kit etc etc.

In my opinion the Fw 187 with DB601s helps the LW survive the earlier years of the war - especially the BoB - with fewer losses, sees the RAF suffer heavier losses but is still not enough to decisively tip the scales......and in Russia and beyond I just don't see that it offers anything the LW need - the Me 110 being more useful in it's fighter-bomber role and of course capable of a very useful night-fighter role.

The DeHavilland Hornet which had as slim and slender an airframe as the Fw 187 proved those seeming d restrictions can be overcome.
Eric Brown stated that it was the airplane that he enjoyed flying the most. The FW 187 should have had similar capabilities.
Other fighters in this class are the Mitsubishi Ki-83 and Grumman F7F Tigercat.

 

[davebender]

301,018 RM. 1942 price for P-38 ($120,407). 2.5 RM per dollar.
140,000 RM. 1940 price for Fw-187A.
If Focke Wulf really can produce the Fw-187A for 140,000 RM then it's a fantastic bargain.

I look at it this way....
86,000 RM for Me-109E. Endurance allows about 15 minutes of combat over an area located about 125 miles from the airfield (i.e. SE England).

140,000 RM for a Fw-187A. Huge internal fuel capacity allows the aircraft to loiter at least two hours over combat area.

Fw-187 costs 63% more.
Fw-187 endurance over combat area is probably close to ten times as long as Me-109E.
Fw-187 has superior aerial performance and superior firepower.
.....You pay 63% more for an aircraft that provides as much combat capability @ 125 miles as an entire squadron of Me-109s. That sounds like a bargain to me. I'd procure the Fw-187 even if it requires reduced Me-109 production. At least one third of Luftwaffe Jagdgeschwader should be operating the Fw-187.

 

[davebender]

3,500 man hours to build Me-109 airframe.
5,400 man hours to build Fw-190 airframe.
…..Fw-190 airframe requires 54% more man hours to build.

27,970 RM. DB601 engine.
45,000 to 65,000 RM. BMW801 engine.
…..During 1942 you can purchase two DB601 engines for the price of one BMW801 engine.

It would be interesting to see man hour requirements to produce Fw-187 airframe. However I suspect Fw-187 would not cost much more then Fw-190A during 1942.

Fw-187 powered by two DB601E engines should out perform the Fw-190A3 in every way except roll. Fw-187 engines are more reliable and don't require C3 fuel. Fw-187 has a large endurance advantage over the Fw-190A3. Both aircraft have four 20mm cannon but Fw-187 has all four in the nose.

Makes me wonder if Fw-190 would enter mass production in this scenerio. Focke Wulf could build the Fw-187 in increasing numbers for the entire war. The expensive and problem plagued BMW801 engine program could be cancelled in favor of increased DB601/DB605 engine production.

 

[Milosh]

301,018 RM. 1942 price for P-38 ($120,407). 2.5 RM per dollar.
140,000 RM. 1940 price for Fw-187A.
If Focke Wulf really can produce the Fw-187A for 140,000 RM then it's a fantastic bargain.

Compare the 1939-40 costs:
P-38 $134,284 or 335,710 RM
P-39 $77,159 or 192,897 RM
P-40 $60,562 or 151,405 RM

to the BF109 of 86,000 RM or $34,400.

American s/e fighters were ~1/2 the cost of the P-38, which is the same approx ratio as the Bf109 to Fw187.

One can't compare cost in one country to cost in another country. For starters, labour costs are different.

 

[davebender]

Not a fair comparison as the P-38 wasn't yet in mass production. You are paying for a hand built P-38 prototype that probably lacks most military equipment such as weapons, protective armor, self sealing fuel tanks, radio equipment etc.