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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
120 were captured by the Luftwaffe and were dispersed. 11 (or so) were delivered to the Regia Aeronautica.
Some were assigned to Kampgruppe 700 and some were assigned to the coastal units (I don't have the unit's number handy) but the largest number of them were assigned to Transportgeschwader 4 (IV./TG4)
It doesn't sound like the Luftwaffe rated them as a top quality bomber then
Cheers
Steve
Shortround6
Major General
Trouble with any French bomber in 1941 is that they were frozen in time (pretty much) back in 1940. Only two that saw production were really up to world standard even in 1940 and by 1941 they were on the low powered side. Useful but not really in the top 3 or 4 of either side. They were frozen with engines of around 1100hp. What they might have become in 1941 or 42 becomes "what if's". One Leo 451 (called a Leo 458 ) was under construction with a pair of 1600hp Wright R-2600s when France fell but never completed let alone flown. There were other prototype engine installations. The Amiot 354 and Leo 451 had some problems with the range/bomb load split. They went about 25,000lb normal loaded and a pair of 1100hp engines was enough to carry both a large bomb load AND lots of fuel. Some were re-engined after the war (or built new?) but that doesn't count for 1941 either.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Ok...perhaps I misunderstood the thread's criteria...
I understood it to read: "1941: Top 3 Axis Level Bombers"
So I assumed that this:
would be for the year 1941
would be for bombers in Axis service
would be for aircraft as intended by design, not by later disposition
would be for aircraft regardless of speed, range, number of crewmen, color or whatever other random points may be brought up...
I understood it to read: "1941: Top 3 Axis Level Bombers"
So I assumed that this:
would be for the year 1941
would be for bombers in Axis service
would be for aircraft as intended by design, not by later disposition
would be for aircraft regardless of speed, range, number of crewmen, color or whatever other random points may be brought up...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
awesome...yet another double-post
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I think it is eligible. It was used by the Axis powers in 1941. I just wouldn't put it in my top three
I don't think the fact that it was being used as a transport rather than a bomber helps its case, but neither should it disqualify it.
Cheers
Steve
i'm not agree on the third, otherwise the operational requirements is a nonsense
however Leo 451 not fulfill the requirement of axis service in 1941 simply because was not in service neither in trasport unit in 1941
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
In all honesty, the Luftwaffe had a reputation of overlooking the potential of aircraft (of all types) even if they are dropped in their lap. 
And I see that several people have been hasty to attack my LeO 451 choice and have yet to post their own selections.
And I see that several people have been hasty to attack my LeO 451 choice and have yet to post their own selections.
Shortround6
Major General
Well, speed and range would help figure out which were best, color not so much
From Green (Bombers and Recce Acft vol 8 ) so take it as you will.
Armament: offensive.
two 1,1102lb and five 441lb bombs in fuselage bomb bay with 220 imp. gal. of fuel.
two 1,1102lb and two 441lb bombs with 398 imp. gal. of fuel.
two 1,1102lb bombs with 530 imp gal. of fuel.
one 1,1102lb or two 441lb bombs with 720 imp. gal. of fuel.
plus one 441lb or 220lb bomb in each of two wing root bays.
max speed 307mph at 15,748ft. max cruising speed 261mph at 15,748ft, economical cruising speed 227mph at 8,200ft, range with 1,100lb bomb load 1430 miles.
Now it is pretty zippy but as far as carrying a bomb load over distance goes..........It beats a Blenheim by about 10% in bomb load
Granted at short ranges it can carry quite a bit. Speed is a little suspect in that the max speeds are for the aircraft 'clean'.
Unfortunately the plane isn't quite fast enough and if you want to use the defensive armament.....
The speed can really drop in the porcelain facility.
- Thread starter
- #32
wuzak
Captain
From Green (Bombers and Recce Acft vol 8 ) so take it as you will.
Armament: offensive.
two 1,1102lb and five 441lb bombs in fuselage bomb bay with 220 imp. gal. of fuel.
two 1,1102lb and two 441lb bombs with 398 imp. gal. of fuel.
two 1,1102lb bombs with 530 imp gal. of fuel.
one 1,1102lb or two 441lb bombs with 720 imp. gal. of fuel.
plus one 441lb or 220lb bomb in each of two wing root bays.
Now it is pretty zippy but as far as carrying a bomb load over distance goes..........It beats a Blenheim by about 10% in bomb load
I take it that the bombs to be carried were 1,102kb (500kg).
In the first configuration the load is 2 x 1,102lb + 5 x 441lb = 4,409lb which is, I would think, much more than 10% greater than a Blenheim.
But I guess the 10% is for load at maximum range?
Shortround6
Major General
Blenheim IVs could carry 1000lb 1460miles. Granted it couldn't carry a lot more a shorter distances.
I am not trying to say that the Leo 451 wasn't much better than a Blenheim as it obviously could do a lot more at short/medium ranges than the Blenheim could but that max load was good for around 440-500 miles range and not radius.
But the Leo had a few problems that a simple look at a data table from Wiki doesn't really show.
A lot of it can be traced to the engines and that frozen in time thing. What the gross weight and combined bomb and fuel load might have gone to in 1941 with more powerful engines (G-14Rs instead of 14Ns or imported R-2600s) is pretty much an unknown. It might have been a very formidable aircraft with 30-50% more power, we will never know, but as the planes built existed in 1941 it would have to take a back seat to the Do 217, JU 88, He 111 and G4M.
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like i did with allies i give my choice on axis for category
Heavy
Fw 200 and S.M.82 they are only 2 so both are in the top 3 of the category =D
Medium
Do 217, He 111, G3M, G4M, Z.1007, S.M.81, MB.210
my top 3: Do 217, He 111, G4M
Light not so small
Do 17, Do 215, Ju 86, Ju 88, Type 97, B.R.20, S.M.79, S.M.79J, S.M.84
my top 3: Ju 88, hard the other 2
Light
Blenheim, Ca 135, B.71, P.37, Ca 133, Type 99
like the allies side this type are of limited capabilities but i save from mediocrity the P.37
Too small
again the Potez 633 in fellowship this time withe the Ca 31x
Overall
Fw 200, Do 217 and... a bit hard
Heavy
Fw 200 and S.M.82 they are only 2 so both are in the top 3 of the category =D
Medium
Do 217, He 111, G3M, G4M, Z.1007, S.M.81, MB.210
my top 3: Do 217, He 111, G4M
Light not so small
Do 17, Do 215, Ju 86, Ju 88, Type 97, B.R.20, S.M.79, S.M.79J, S.M.84
my top 3: Ju 88, hard the other 2
Light
Blenheim, Ca 135, B.71, P.37, Ca 133, Type 99
like the allies side this type are of limited capabilities but i save from mediocrity the P.37
Too small
again the Potez 633 in fellowship this time withe the Ca 31x
Overall
Fw 200, Do 217 and... a bit hard
- Thread starter
- #36
wuzak
Captain
Surely the Fw 200 is not really a good bomber at all?
Fw 200 had troble in low level high stress manouvres but this are not commmon operation for a bomber, unlucky for it were common for anti ship aircraft however i think the C-3 had correct this troubles. also if it load capability was much inferior of the allies heavies this is alone axis bomber with 50-70% load capability of a allies heavy
wiking85
Staff Sergeant
Do-217, Ju88, He-111
