1942 and on: RAF fields 'proper' P-38s - consequences?

[Glider]

In combat, adrenaline tends to take care of the temperature issue, but sometimes pilots are so cold appendages refuse to function (see heated trigger-thumb gloves for Spitfire pilots).

It's the tedious hours in-between that trapped sitting in -20/-30 tends to have a larger effect.

The P-38 was unique in this issue because the temperature the pilots felt was noticeably lower than other aircraft. I'm not sure what is difficult to accept.

There was nothing unique about the P38 and heating (or lack thereof). Certainly the Me110 and the Beaufighter had similar issues but you don't hear the cold being something made such a fuss over. I have read a couple of biographies where crews have switched from the Beaufighter to the Mossie and come back soaked to the skin with sweat as they had worn the same clothes as they had in the Beaufighter.

 

[Greyman]

From a quick zip through P-38 Performance Tests :

Pilots have reported that the heating of the cockpit is unsatisfactory. Inspection of the heating system revealed that the heating blast ducts are too small to be sufficient in heating the cockpit satisfactorily. It is recommended that the ducts be made of a larger diameter to secure more heating volume, and an attempt be made to make the cockpit airtight.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS:
b) Suitable means of maintaining cockpit heat at altitude be installed. (Cockpit heater on P-39NO is best seen to date.)

 

[Kevin J]

An Air Force that really would have benifited with the P-38 was the RAAF in the PTO.

Nah, their Beaufighters were much better. It was their highest scoring fighter in the last 2 years of the war. Besides, it had a navigator to get you home, just as much range and 50% more firepower. It could outrun all those Jap planes on the deck too.

 

[Shortround6]

What was unique about the P-38 in regards to cockpit heat or lack off it was the altitudes it flew at, and the time spent at those altitudes. Time of year didn't help. Comparing a plane flying at sea level or even 15,000 ft to one flying at 25,000 ft is a different environment.

 

[swampyankee]

The only thing having the props turn in the same direction did was create a "critical engine" (This has been discussed in length through out this forum) and dozens of twins flown during that period were in the same boat, so I'd like to know if that statement about "undesirable handling issues" came from an actual pilot or the opinion of an author. Having an advanced twin with a critical engine is exactly what would you'd want. Taking this a step further, you would not be putting a green pilot in this aircraft, it would clearly be used for advanced training. The last point is in an advanced trainer, you don't want "sweet" and "docile," you want the student to work and be challenged enough so he could learn and develop proficiency without killing himself.

To expand: it's rare to use handed props. Check out current aircraft.

Of course, most variants of the P-38 had a critical engine, as only one engine had a generator

 

[Shortround6]

Nah, their Beaufighters were much better. It was their highest scoring fighter in the last 2 years of the war. Besides, it had a navigator to get you home, just as much range and 50% more firepower. It could outrun all those Jap planes on the deck too.

So could a Lockheed Ventura, doesn't mean the Ventura was really a fighter (although some were used as night fighters).

 

[P-39 Expert]

From a quick zip through P-38 Performance Tests :

Pilots have reported that the heating of the cockpit is unsatisfactory. Inspection of the heating system revealed that the heating blast ducts are too small to be sufficient in heating the cockpit satisfactorily. It is recommended that the ducts be made of a larger diameter to secure more heating volume, and an attempt be made to make the cockpit airtight.

...

RECOMMENDATIONS:
b) Suitable means of maintaining cockpit heat at altitude be installed. (Cockpit heater on P-39NO is best seen to date.)

The P-39N had the best cockpit heater. Very important. Especially at high altitude.

 

[wuzak]

The P-39N had the best cockpit heater. Very important. Especially at high altitude.

That is ironic!

 

[pbehn]

That is ironic!

The vast majority of fighters didn't need a heater at all, cooling and ventilation was the problem.

 

[GreenKnight121]

Do you think that a P-38 pilot may be a bit overwhelmed by the amount of work he has to do by himself? Navigating at night, for example.

Where do you stick Oboe and its electronics? In pathfinder Mosquitos that equipment was in the nose, in the bomb aimer's position. I suppose that could be done for the Lightning, but then you have no guns (so equal to the Mossie in those terms). What about H2S? Can a pilot fly an aircraft with his head buried in a radar scope?

.....

It could be used as a night fighter, but not radar equipped. It could be used for short cross channel raids as a light bomber, with Spitfires as escorts.

The only thing that makes the Mosquito a "night fighter" was it's radar equipment. Aside from things like flame arrestors and minor cockpit mods, true WW2 night fighters were based on the installation of radar. After WW2 when this equipment became "standard" notice how the "night fighter" term went into the sunset.

That would make the P-61 the only "true" nightfighter of WW2. But what is really different between it and the contemporary NF.XXX? Seating position, disposition of monitors?

Ummm... Yes these posts are 7 years old - but the thread hasn't had a correction to the misinformation here, and both members are still posting (as of today, even), so here goes.

The P-38 was equipped with the AN/APS-6 air-air radar, and a second crewman "radar operator" with the P-38M - which flew in October 1944, and began production deliveries in January 1945 (unfortunately, they never made it into combat in WW2).



However, the F6F-3N & -5N Hellcat and F4U-2 Corsair DID see combat in WW2 - even with only one crewman! They were vectored to near the intruding Japanese aircraft by radar-equipped TMB Avengers, then used their own radar for the final approach & shot line-up.
TMB-1D with AN/APS-3 radar and spotlight, then TMB-3E with AN/APS-4 in removable pod:


A total of 34 F4U-1's were converted to F4U-2's with the addition of the AN/APS-6. Thirty two conversions were made at the Naval Aircraft Factory and two were made in the field at Rio Island, Kwajalein Atoll.
Navy Night Fighter Squadron VF-(N) drew first blood at Munda in April of 1944 when it surprised a flight of obsolete Japanese aircraft conducting nuisance raids.

U.S. Navy Vought F4U-2 Corsair night fighters from Night Fighting Squadron VFN-101 aboard the aircraft carrier USS Intrepid (CV-11) during the Marshall Islands campaign in early 1944. A four-plane detachment of VFN-101 was assigned to Air Group 6 aboard the Intrepid.



Starting in July 1943, 200 F6F-3Ns were built, with the AN/APS-6 - seeing combat from November 1943 on. 1,435 F6F-5Ns with an improved AN/APS-6 were produced from May 1944 on.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ummm... Yes these posts are 7 years old - but the thread hasn't had a correction to the misinformation here, and both members are still posting (as of today, even), so here goes.

What misinformation? All the examples you showed began life as a "daytime flyers" and only became a night fighter after modification and if you read some of the pilot reports on these aircraft in their post mods, they weren't exactly user friendly. Would you want to be that radar operator riding piggy back in a P-38M?? I think my statement is still valid today as it was 7 years ago. The P-61 was designed as a nightfighter from the get-go. Show me any other WW2 aircraft that was designed from the ground up as a nightfighter. There was some thought put into ergonomics and the lay out of the aircraft, let alone the equipment. No radar pods, no overpacked cockpits, no piggy back RO smelling pilot flatulence. In the end the next generation of combat aircraft just about eclipsed the term "nightfighter" as the term "all weather" settled in and what was being achieved with bolt on mods eventually became standard equipment.

 

[BiffF15]

Gents,

On the P38M what are the antennas for beneath the wings?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Gents,

On the P38M what are the antennas for beneath the wings?

Cheers,
Biff

I believe the tree looking structure was a pylon to hold rockets

 

[wuzak]

I believe the tree looking structure was a pylon to hold rockets

I believe you are correct.

I couldn't find any actual photos, but did find soem pics of models.

Trumpeter 02227 Lockheed P-38L-5-LO lightning

52 Lockheed P-38 over Europe

 

[wuzak]

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71N3hYYipUL._SL1000_.jpg
Amazon product ASIN B01E5V3VEG

 

[wuzak]

However, the F6F-3N & -5N Hellcat and F4U-2 Corsair DID see combat in WW2 - even with only one crewman! They were vectored to near the intruding Japanese aircraft by radar-equipped TMB Avengers, then used their own radar for the final approach & shot line-up.

The method you describe might be a little different to H2S/H2X Pathfinders which were the ones doing the guiding and target marking based on radar showing ground details in overcast or night time conditions.

Most H2X pathfinders for the USAAF were B-17s.

 

[IdahoRenegade]

Interesting question. First, lets assume that Britain did order '38s with the proper, "handed" engines, with turbos-and that the US government agreed to allow the sale of the turbos-AND that the WPB didn't recognize our need for a long range fighter and stop the sale for US interests. Let's also say that production ramped up to usable numbers by mid '41 (which might be the biggest "stretch" of these assumptions). It might have been possible if greater emphasis was placed on the P-38 production vs the Venture/Hudson that Lockheed was focusing on.

From the beginning the '38 with turbocharged Allisons made good power at high altitude. Timeline of mid-41...the Spit IX with the 2-speed, 2-stage Merlin was a year off from going operational IIRC. The Brits would have superiority at high altitude a year earlier than achieved-though how critical that really was is questionable given the respectable performance of the Spit in the existing form and that of German aircraft in '41.

The key thing it would have brought to the table was a fighter with some useful range for offensive operations. IIRC, the '38 had longer range than German bombers, let alone fighters. They could have been destroying German aircraft on their home turf, instead of waiting for them to be in range of British cities.

The Brits learned early on that unescorted daylight bombing was a fools game. The '38 would have given them a long range bomber escort 2+ years before the -51B first saw combat. What impact would that have had? Hard to say-the Lanc, as great a bomber as it was, was severely limited in defensive firepower vs the -17 or -24; even escorted losses might have been unacceptable.

The high-altitude issues the US encountered in late '43 would have been encountered and rectified far earlier.

Intercepts of attacking German aircraft could have been done at much longer range, and enemy formations attacked in stages (as our bomber raids were) with a long range fighter. Granted this was much less of an issue by '41 after the BOB.

Perhaps the biggest issue-the demand might have justified an additional production plant for the '38 early on-meaning we could have had sufficient ones available for long-range escort earlier in '43 when the US started intensive daylight bombing. A 2nd production facility would have facilitated incorporation of design changes without halting production.

Pilots and ground crews would have developed operations and tactics to best utilize the planes strengths and minimize it's weaknesses far earlier. Those lessons could have been passed on to American pilots in early 43, much as they were when applied to single-engined fighters.

 

[wuzak]

The initial contract or Lightning Is was amended so that the first 143 delivered would be Lightning I's and the remaining 524 would be Lightning IIs with handed engines and turbos.

From the beginning the '38 with turbocharged Allisons made good power at high altitude. Timeline of mid-41...the Spit IX with the 2-speed, 2-stage Merlin was a year off from going operational IIRC. The Brits would have superiority at high altitude a year earlier than achieved-though how critical that really was is questionable given the respectable performance of the Spit in the existing form and that of German aircraft in '41.

"The first three Lightnings arrived in the UK by sea transport in March of 1942."
Lightning I for RAF

"The P-38D had a maximum speed of 390 mph at 25,000 feet. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 8 minutes. Service ceiling was 39,000 feet. The first P-38Ds began to reach USAAF units in August 1941. "
Lockheed P-38D Lightning

Only 66 Ds were made, and they were followed by the E.

Not sure how truly combat capable the P-38D and P-38E were.
"The P-38E was still not yet considered combat-ready, and most P-38Es were redesignated RP-38Es while others were used for various tests. "
Lockheed P-38E Lightning

"The P-38F version of late 1942 was the first Lightning version that was considered fully combat-ready. It included 377 US-ordered aircraft, plus 150 planes that had originally been ordered under British and French contracts. "
Lockheed P-38F Lightning

 

[IdahoRenegade]

The initial contract or Lightning Is was amended so that the first 143 delivered would be Lightning I's and the remaining 524 would be Lightning IIs with handed engines and turbos.



"The first three Lightnings arrived in the UK by sea transport in March of 1942."
Lightning I for RAF

"The P-38D had a maximum speed of 390 mph at 25,000 feet. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 8 minutes. Service ceiling was 39,000 feet. The first P-38Ds began to reach USAAF units in August 1941. "
Lockheed P-38D Lightning

Only 66 Ds were made, and they were followed by the E.

Not sure how truly combat capable the P-38D and P-38E were.
"The P-38E was still not yet considered combat-ready, and most P-38Es were redesignated RP-38Es while others were used for various tests. "
Lockheed P-38E Lightning

"The P-38F version of late 1942 was the first Lightning version that was considered fully combat-ready. It included 377 US-ordered aircraft, plus 150 planes that had originally been ordered under British and French contracts. "
Lockheed P-38F Lightning

The Brits cancelled all orders for the -322 before the first ones were delivered. Needless to say-that put a major wrench in the gears of production emphasis. Sadly-Lockheed wasted engineering and production resources on this castrated aircraft-at a time when they COULD have been building combat capable, turbocharged ones. They wasted the engineering resources to make this "special" version-resources that might better have been spent sorting out the compressibility issues, or perhaps simplifying the cockpit. IIRC, only 3 -322s were ever delivered to the Brits-who didn't want them, and refused to quickly test or seriously consider them. Who could blame them-after their specifications and demands crippled the aircraft, it lost the advantages it had over other aircraft of the day. Without the turbos-it was no more capable than say a Mustang I or P-40 at altitude.

The bright spot I guess is that the British order for several hundred aircraft did at least "prime the pump" of Lockheed's manufacturing facility-and even the castrated Lightnings provided a basis to upgrade to a combat-capable aircraft-or trainer.

 

[Kevin J]

The initial contract or Lightning Is was amended so that the first 143 delivered would be Lightning I's and the remaining 524 would be Lightning IIs with handed engines and turbos.



"The first three Lightnings arrived in the UK by sea transport in March of 1942."
Lightning I for RAF

"The P-38D had a maximum speed of 390 mph at 25,000 feet. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be reached in 8 minutes. Service ceiling was 39,000 feet. The first P-38Ds began to reach USAAF units in August 1941. "
Lockheed P-38D Lightning

Only 66 Ds were made, and they were followed by the E.

Not sure how truly combat capable the P-38D and P-38E were.
"The P-38E was still not yet considered combat-ready, and most P-38Es were redesignated RP-38Es while others were used for various tests. "
Lockheed P-38E Lightning

"The P-38F version of late 1942 was the first Lightning version that was considered fully combat-ready. It included 377 US-ordered aircraft, plus 150 planes that had originally been ordered under British and French contracts. "
Lockheed P-38F Lightning

Combat ready for where exactly? I don't think I'd rate my chances of survival highly in a duel between a P-38F/G against a Bf 109F/G. I'd much prefer a Spitfire IX on the Channel Front.