247 sqn typhoon markings

[Profiler]

Hey guys,

I am currently working on a profile of a 247 sqn Typhoon with the codes ZY-B. The few other references that I have for this sqn always have it as ZY-*, but the only left sided reference that I have for this particular aircraft is another profile that I found on-line and it has it as B-ZY, which way would be correct?
Also does anybody have an idea what he white graphic on the cowl may represent, is it a dog?
If anybody has other images of 247 sqn Typhoons I would love to see em.

 

[Wurger]

That's a pity you haven't been here with the question erlier.Because I'm not at home now and cannot check the proper markings for the squadron.But if there won't be anybody to make it clear I can try to answer your question later.

 

[Wildcat]

I'm not much help, all I could find is a corgi model of ZY-B

Corgi Collectables AA36506 (C) Hawker Typhoon IB - Tank/Bunkerbuster - RAF No.247 Squadron, RAF Hurn, June 1944

 

[Profiler]

Wurger, its np im not in a great rush anything you have will be great.

Wildcat, that Corgi model is one of the reasons for my confusion.8)

 

[Wurger]

Hi again,

I have gone through some books about Typhoon Mk.IB and I have to admit I haven't found any decent pics of ZY*B serial MN316 that could prove if the profile you uploaded is correct.In these books I have found some pics of Typhoons of 247 squadron taken in different years of their usage ( mostly in 1944 and 1945).Some of them show starboards ( ZY*B RB458 Lubeck May 1945, ZY*N serial unknown Luneberg May 1945, ZY*T MN606 Eindhoven the end of 1944, ZY*L serial unknown Melsbroek Septenber 1944, ZY*X EK140 place and year unknown, ZY*G MM951 Merston March 1944, early Mk.IB ZY*B EK224 Bradwell Bay June1943 ) but in some we can see port sides ( Typhoon Mk.IB ZY*G MN928 in Normandy, ZY*W RB483 Helmond March 1945, early Mk.IB ZY*Z DN542 February 1943, early ZY*B DN340 Fairlop May 1943 ).
Looking at these shots and taking the RAF painting camo scheme rules for Typhoons it can be said that your profile is incorrect.It seems that the kind of markings for 247 sqn was used for the early Mk.IB aircraft but there wasn't a rule for it.The later version of Mk.IB had the standard RAF markings, I mean the squadron two-letter code was painted on left side of RAF roundel and the individual letter of aircraft on the right side of it.So, on starboard the unit code was close to the tail section then the RAF roundel and then the individual letter of an aircraft which was closier to the cockpit.And vice versa, on the port side squadron code was close to the cockpit then RAF roundel and then the individual letter .That is my opinion.Here you are some colour profiles and a pic of ZY*B EK224 I've found via Internet.I hope I helped a little bit.

best regards,

 

[Profiler]

Wurger, as usual thanks for the great reply.8)

How much store do you think I should put in the source of the original profile? as it came from the Royal Air Force Historical Sections own website. The Royal Air Force - History Section You have put a pretty strong case why the profile is probably wrong, and I am now more inclined to go with ZY*B. Its just that this profile appears to be such an anomaly (hence my interest) with its black/gray spinner and reversed from traditional sqn markings that it just stands out when compared to the other 247 sqn images that you posted and I have too wonder if the original artist had a better source to work from then you or I, or did he/she just get it wrong, or am I putting too much faith into another website no matter what its links may be?

Maybe I should just pick another scheme to represent.

James

 

[Wurger]

Hallo again,

You are welcome.

It's up to you only how much store you can put in the source of the profile.I know the site and I have to state that it is a great source of information.But we cannot be sure that even there errors can appear.Especially when there are not available any decent pics of the particular Typhoon as the evidence that the machine wore the kind of markings.What makes thing worse there were Typhoons that were marked with the same code but in different periods of time. Finally I've found one shot of the MN316, but it cannot be the proof that these markings are correct.Simply these aren't visible at all.What is more, if there are pics of the Typhoon these would be published in one of some books about the interesting aircraft.
Your idea on picking another scheme is good.But I must warn you that I haven't found any shots that present both sides of any 247 squadron Typhoons so far.Of course you can get one of a different unit.It's up to you only as I had said before.

In addition I've found these profiles that can be a source of comparing 247 sqn machines.It seems that these are correct.But errors cannot be excluded as well.

 

[Profiler]

Its quite funny/unfortunate that all the images (including the model above) I have found of ZY*B be they die cast or plastic models are always of the starboard side. I think for the sake of accuracy I will move on to another scheme. If you(or anybody) has a good Port side image of any typhoon with full invasions stripes I would like to see it.
thanks again.
James

 

[Wurger]

This one looks interesting.

 

[Profiler]

'Tis interesting, am I right in assuming the 'ERB' are the pilots initials, and one of the privileges of rank?

Anyway this is what I have decided to go with. 'ERB' is something to consider down the track when/if I get around to finishing this...

 

[Wildcat]

James, have you ever considered doing a profile of one of the Typhoons attached to 451 sqn RAAF for desert trials? Would be something a bit different, though good pics of these a/c may be hard to come by.

 

[Profiler]

Wildcat. Absolutely, these profiles are set up to easily change markings,camouflage and mark specific details like the car door type canopy.
Now if anybody has an image of said airframe, or can provide details of other Australian Typhoon pilots markings...

 

[Scorpiomikey]

Ive picked up a model of ZY*G MM951, Can anybody tell me difinitavly when the black and white stripes came on? i thought id ask this in here as this thread seems to about this squadron, the model shows no stripes, everything else ive seen shows stripes, i know they came on before D-Day invasions so other pilots could distinguish them from FW-190's, just not sure of the time frames, and wether i should put them on or not

 

[Airframes]

Hi mate. Allied (combat) aircraft operating in daylight northern Europe at the time of D-Day received their 'Invasion' stripes on the evening of 5th June, 1944. This applied to all combat aircraft with the exception of heavy bombers, eg B17 etc. Later, by about August, most aircraft had the stripes removed from the upper surfaces, which was simply achieved, as they were (normally) painted with washable 'distemper' paint, although some had 'real' paint applied.
The Typhoons did have black and white stripes earlier in their service lives, at the time of the Dieppe landings, but these were not the 18 inch wide stripes as used for 'Overlord' and beyond; they were narrower, and wider - spaced, and were removed after the operation.
Hope this helps.

 

[Scorpiomikey]

this does help alot, any idea of the widths of the pre d-day stripes? or were they just rough painted?

 

[Wurger]

These pre d-day stripes consisted of four black ones of 12 inch and three white stripes of 18 inch for each one.These were painted on undersides of wings , going towards a fuselage and starting with a black strip following the RAF roundel on undersides with 6 inches. To recall, the centre of an underside roundel was painted 84.017 inch of a wingtip.As far as their painting quality is concerned in all pics I have seen these were painted precisely

 

[Tinplate58]

The D-Day bands were specified as 18" wide , depending on the painters how rough they were.
The earlier bands mentioned above (to avoid confusion with the FW190---but a couple were shot down by friendly fighters anyway) were used from Dec. 5 1942 to Feb. 7 1943.
Nick

 

[mengels]

Hey guys,

I am currently working on a profile of a 247 sqn Typhoon with the codes ZY-B. The few other references that I have for this sqn always have it as ZY-*, but the only left sided reference that I have for this particular aircraft is another profile that I found on-line and it has it as B-ZY, which way would be correct?
Also does anybody have an idea what he white graphic on the cowl may represent, is it a dog?
If anybody has other images of 247 sqn Typhoons I would love to see em.

Two photographs of ZY-X coded Hawker Typhoon Mk IB

 

[mengels]

photo Typhoon MK IB with ZY-X markings

 

[Wurger]

I would say the last pic shows the Tempest. But THX for posting.