70th anniversary of Hiroshima

[GregP]

That's your opinion.

I know very few other people who think that and I am around a LOT of them at the museum from countries all over the world.

It isn't aimed at YOU, Graugeist, and it isn't personal. It's what people think that I hear on a weekly basis, mostly about WWII since that is the aviation generation we support most heavily with flying aircraft. It really doesn't matter if I agree with you, either. Most peoploe don't think that way that I hear talking about it every Saturday. In fact, I hear something about religiion and faith maybe once a year when the subject of WWII comes up, and it mostly comes from the same guy.

I think religion started a LOT of wars, but maybe not the majority of them, as you say. The Crusades were nominally about religion, but the other side thinks of them as a great massacre and they don't even mention religion. It was a massacre by infidels. I suppose the historic facts of a conflict depend on which side you were on at the time.

Recorded history is usually from the point of view of the victor.

 

[pbehn]

Just an idea, but something that has nagged in my mind for years reading history books. I dont think the British (and commonwealth) combned with the USA really understood the conflict until it was over. In Europe it was communism against fascism. When Europe was flattened in the end Russia and France/Italy continued the fight by other ideolological means while Germany just threw in the ideological towel and started making "things". It was left to the USA to face down Russia (the only man standing in Europe) while supporting their old enemy Japan against the rise of Russia and China in the east.

Anyways I have been to the Hiroshima peace park, a very moving experience I hope we never have that experience again.

 

[GrauGeist]

That's your opinion.

Nope, not opinion, just going by historical references.

An example, President Roosevelt's speech, 8 December 1941:

To the Congress of the United States: Yesterday, Dec. 7, 1941 - a date which will live in infamy - the United States of America was suddenly and deliberately attacked by naval and air forces of the Empire of Japan.

The United States was at peace with that nation and, at the solicitation of Japan, was still in conversation with the government and its emperor looking toward the maintenance of peace in the Pacific.

Indeed, one hour after Japanese air squadrons had commenced bombing in Oahu, the Japanese ambassador to the United States and his colleagues delivered to the Secretary of State a formal reply to a recent American message. While this reply stated that it seemed useless to continue the existing diplomatic negotiations, it contained no threat or hint of war or armed attack.

It will be recorded that the distance of Hawaii from Japan makes it obvious that the attack was deliberately planned many days or even weeks ago. During the intervening time, the Japanese government has deliberately sought to deceive the United States by false statements and expressions of hope for continued peace.

The attack yesterday on the Hawaiian islands has caused severe damage to American naval and military forces. Very many American lives have been lost. In addition, American ships have been reported torpedoed on the high seas between San Francisco and Honolulu.

Yesterday, the Japanese government also launched an attack against Malaya.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Hong Kong.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked Guam.

Last night, Japanese forces attacked the Philippine Islands.

Last night, the Japanese attacked Wake Island.

This morning, the Japanese attacked Midway Island.

Japan has, therefore, undertaken a surprise offensive extending throughout the Pacific area. The facts of yesterday speak for themselves. The people of the United States have already formed their opinions and well understand the implications to the very life and safety of our nation.

As commander in chief of the Army and Navy, I have directed that all measures be taken for our defense.

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us.

No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win through to absolute victory.

I believe I interpret the will of the Congress and of the people when I assert that we will not only defend ourselves to the uttermost, but will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again.

Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that that our people, our territory and our interests are in grave danger.

With confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us God.

I ask that the Congress declare that since the unprovoked and dastardly attack by Japan on Sunday, Dec. 7, a state of war has existed between the United States and the Japanese empire.

 

[gumbyk]

Whether a person beleives in a higher power or not, the Allies did use faith as inspiration to overcome and succeed.

As did the Axis...

"What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." - A Hitler

When nationalism meets religious extremism, you get a perfect storm. With the Japanese, you had the (adulterated) bushido code, along with nationalism, Nazi Germany, you had extreme Catholicism, along with nationalism. The only way the Allies could unite everyone was to follow suit.

And it still happens today.

 

[pbehn]

As did the Axis...

"What we have to fight for…is the freedom and independence of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." - A Hitler

When nationalism meets religious extremism, you get a perfect storm.

Religion was a part of everybodys life in that time. ALL the people I knew who lived through the war went to church every sunday at least many went 2 or 3 times normally It was part of life to refer to God and his will.

 

[gumbyk]

Religion was a part of everybodys life in that time. ALL the people I knew who lived through the war went to church every sunday at least many went 2 or 3 times normally It was part of life to refer to God and his will.

Yes, and that went for both Allies and Axis. Both sides used religion to bind their civilian population, and to strengthen the "us and them" feelings.

It was easy for the German population to accept jewish slaves in their midst when it was 'gods plan'

 

[GrauGeist]

...And it still happens today.

As it's been happening since the dawn of man.

The list of gods/goddesses and dieties that offer success protection in battle is an extremly long and ancient one.

Some of the war dieties reach back 6,000 years.

To give you an idea of just how many there were, have a look at this partial list: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_deities

It's not a new concept by any means.

 

[GregP]

Hey, I never said the leaders didn't invoke faith. I even allowed it was words for the masses. It's the soldiers I'm talking about.

They though t of faith when they were about to be killed, not when they were attacking things. Nobody prayed to God they would hit the target with bombs, artillery, or whatever ... the guys on the ground might have prayed NOT to get hit by a bomb and the guys in planes and ships might have prayed to survive. But I doubt if dropping a depth charge ona sub engendered many prayers. Neither did pressing the firing button on the stick. The people who were seeing tracers 2 inches above the canopy might be praying, but not the guys who were shooting at the time.

Mortaility generates a lot of prayer when it is about to be terminated.

From what I've read of Japanese accounts, nobody in Hiroshima on the ground thought much of the bomb until it exploded. After all, it was ONE B-29 and ONE bomb. They were used to seeing multiple B-29s and long sticks of bombs.

 

[tyrodtom]

A pilot once turned me into a instant Catholic when we got into a tight spot.

He was saying Hail Marys, that soon got shortened into only "Hail Mary " over and over. I realized later I was saying it with him.

Greg you seem to have a jaded view of religion.

I grew up in a congregation whose male membership was more than half WW2 vets, including my own dad. I know he belonged to it before WW2, but I'm not sure of the others.

I remember plenty of Chaplins when I was in Vietnam, and the services were usually pretty crowed.

 

[gumbyk]

Tyrodtom, I'm not sure about during Vietnam, but now there is a "Spiritual Fitness" test, which used to be almost impossible to pass if you were an atheist: Military Association of Atheists Freethinkers | Spirituality and Spiritual Fitness - Military Association of Atheists Freethinkers.
You can guarantee that at least some of those at the services were simply there to fit in. After all, if you are in one of the most reviled groups in America, its probably best not to make it known.

Anyway, It's probably best that I bow out of this conversation here. It's something that I'm pretty passionate about, and its sailing fairly close to the wind for getting out of hand.

 

[meatloaf109]

It is, and I did not mean to incite this kind of debate. I was referring to human history as a whole. And our possible future.

 

[gumbyk]

It is, and I did not mean to incite this kind of debate. I was referring to human history as a whole. And our possible future.

No worries. But, I guess it does show how inter-connected all of the reasons are.

 

[GregP]

I don't have a jaded view of religion, I have a realistic view of soldiers. There is NOTHING holy about a war being fought over world domination.

And a politican saying words about faith and religion is about as believable as the same politican making political promises about what he will do if elected. It's designed for the press and the people, not for what he is thinking.

But, if you think it was a holy cause, who am I to disuade you from it? Believe whatever you want, but don't try to convince me you're right. I'll listen without ever once thinking it makes any sense and it won't make a dent in reality. There is nothing holy about pointing a rifle, Spitfire, destroyer, submarine, or artillery piece at someone and pulling the trigger. It is purely and simply an act of war started by men and being fought by men. Ain't no angles flitting about trying to make your aim better. They might be trying to make you stop ... but they surely aren't helping you to kill other people who are mostly at war because politicians failed at statemanship and they got conscripted.

This doesn't have to degenerate into a fight. You won't change what I believe and I am not trying to convince you to change either. What you posted sounded like a statement, not an opinion. It''s a statement I wholeheartedly disagree with. As an opinion, you and I both are entitled to our own.

So maybe let's keep religion and faith out of WWII and stick to the human side of war. If we argue Christian beliefs, we'll just offend non-Christians without settling anything, not to mention the aithiests who have no God belief at all.

 

[GrauGeist]

If we step back and look at the larger picture, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the 20th century's peak of mankind's ancient tendencies.

Humankind has not moved far enough away from it's ancient roots, where competition for game (food) and living space created friction between tribes. Religion (superstition) has it's roots deep in that timeline as well, but the basic instinct to eye our neighbors with suspicion is still there, and will continue to create problems for humanity until we learn to mature and move past that.

When we go to an airshow and walk around a P-47, in all of it's restored and polished glory, we see a magnificent machine and we'll debate it's rate of climb, it's range with a full loadout, it's top speed at 35,000 feet and so on. What it boils down to, is that this very same P-47 was manufactured to kill members of rival tribes. It's sole purpose was to defend territory a rival tribe was trying to take away.

That P-47 was the 20th century's equivalent of a stone axe or an obsidian-tipped spear.

 

[GregP]

I sure would hate to fly one with an obsidian wing spar ...

 

[parsifal]

The bombs were a terrible an destructive weapon. they caused the loss of several hundred thousand people.

The war as a whole caused the deaths of about 50 million people, and every day that passed with no peace more people died. Its hard for people to understand, but the bomb actually saved lives in the finish, not least the Japanese themselves. They were planning national suicide until confronted with the dual realities of the bomb and Russian entry.

im no fan of atomic bombs, but the bomb actually worked for the good of peace in the finish, and continues to do so through the MAD ethos. its the bomb that allows Putin to make the outrageous statements that he does

 

[Balljoint]

The bombs were a terrible an destructive weapon. they caused the loss of several hundred thousand people.

The war as a whole caused the deaths of about 50 million people, and every day that passed with no peace more people died. Its hard for people to understand, but the bomb actually saved lives in the finish, not least the Japanese themselves. They were planning national suicide until confronted with the dual realities of the bomb and Russian entry.

im no fan of atomic bombs, but the bomb actually worked for the good of peace in the finish, and continues to do so through the MAD ethos. its the bomb that allows Putin to make the outrageous statements that he does

My sense is that Japan, a never-defeated island nation with an unusual mix of industrial modernity and a feudal society, had a substantial segment of the ruling military that were determined to fight to extinction. The experiences on Tinian, Okinawa and elsewhere taught that the population would fight to the death and, failing that, commit mass suicide. Under such circumstances and with much ignorance of the bombs' full effect, the decision is reasonable. Arguably, it could have saved the Japanese culture and civil existence. Even in hindsight we can't say.

 

[soulezoo]

Yes, and that went for both Allies and Axis. Both sides used religion to bind their civilian population, and to strengthen the "us and them" feelings.

It was easy for the German population to accept jewish slaves in their midst when it was 'gods plan'

Indeed, the Axis invoked "God" as much as we did.

Anyone recall what was inscribed on the average Wehrmacht soldier's belt buckle?

 

[yulzari]

Indeed, the Axis invoked "God" as much as we did.

Anyone recall what was inscribed on the average Wehrmacht soldier's belt buckle?

In my limited soldiering experience it was his service number in case some ..**! half inched it.

 

[tyrodtom]

I don't have a jaded view of religion, I have a realistic view of soldiers. There is NOTHING holy about a war being fought over world domination.

And a politican saying words about faith and religion is about as believable as the same politican making political promises about what he will do if elected. It's designed for the press and the people, not for what he is thinking.

But, if you think it was a holy cause, who am I to disuade you from it? Believe whatever you want, but don't try to convince me you're right. I'll listen without ever once thinking it makes any sense and it won't make a dent in reality. There is nothing holy about pointing a rifle, Spitfire, destroyer, submarine, or artillery piece at someone and pulling the trigger. It is purely and simply an act of war started by men and being fought by men. Ain't no angles flitting about trying to make your aim better. They might be trying to make you stop ... but they surely aren't helping you to kill other people who are mostly at war because politicians failed at statemanship and they got conscripted.

This doesn't have to degenerate into a fight. You won't change what I believe and I am not trying to convince you to change either. What you posted sounded like a statement, not an opinion. It''s a statement I wholeheartedly disagree with. As an opinion, you and I both are entitled to our own.

So maybe let's keep religion and faith out of WWII and stick to the human side of war. If we argue Christian beliefs, we'll just offend non-Christians without settling anything, not to mention the aithiests who have no God belief at all.

The only thing that I'm disagreeing with you on is the presence of religion in the thoughts of people fighting the war, on the personal level, that is the human side.

I was brought up in a religious family, my dad a x-Marine was a preacher, my oldest brother a preacher, every member of the family the member of a church. But also every male member of my own family and my father and mothers family was at one time in the service. Two of my mother's brothers and one of my father's brothers died in WW2.

You're not the only one who has heard veterans talk. Most of the veterans I knew, I'd been around for years, and I was a kid who wasn't afraid to ask questions.

I'm rambling here.

I don't think anyone on this forum has any chance of changing your mind on anything Greg, we're all used to the agree to disagree speech.