70th anniversary of Hiroshima

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Steve, please check the dates mate.
First you mention April 1945, and than you say that it was at the top of the list along with diplomatic efforts in June 1945.

But it was as early as mid June (after 18th June meeting) that the operation was highly unlikely, and 8th July "Estimate of the Enemy Situation" basically shattered all hopes for low casualty operation effectively dropping it off the board. No politician, especially Truman, would risk such operation when it was already known that Japan was defeated.

It may have slipped down the list in July, but only after the decision in principle to use the bombs had been taken.
No, no, no. Decision to use the Atomic bombs was not alternative to invasion.

The whole current view is based on Washington insiders, who were concerned through 1946, about the view on A-bombs when multiple voices were raised if it was necessary or not, and if Truman did everything possible to avoid using it.
The result was a long article, in Stimson's name, sourced to a memorandum from his assistant, Harvey Bundy, and written largely by Bundy's precociously clever son, McGeorge. Groves, Conant and several senior officials edited the draft. The article first appeared in the February 1947 issue of Harper's Magazine, reappeared in major newspapers and magazines, and was aired on mainstream radio. It purported to be a straight statement of the facts, and quickly gained legitimacy as the official case for the weapon. The Harper's article (and a parallel piece in the Atlantic Monthly by Karl Compton) reinforced in the American mind the tendentious idea that the atomic bomb saved hundreds of thousands (perhaps several millions, Compton claimed) of American lives by preventing an invasion of Japan. The article's central plank was that America had had no choice. There was no other way to force the Japanese to surrender than to drop atomic weapons on them. By this argument, the atomic bombings were not only a patriotic duty but also a moral expedient:

"In the light of the alternatives which, upon a fair estimate, were open to us I believe that no man, in our position and subject to our responsibilities, holding in his hands a weapon of such possibilities for accomplishing this purpose and saving those lives, could have failed to use it and afterwards looked his countrymen in the face.
The decision to use the atomic bomb brought death to over a hundred thousand Japanese. No explanation can change that fact and I do not wish to gloss over it. But this deliberate, premeditated destruction was our least abhorrent choice. The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki put an end to the Japanese war. It stopped the fire raids, and the strangling blockade; it ended the ghastly specter of the clash of great land armies."

The essay made no mention of the long debate over the role of the Emperor and Japan's last (and only persuasive) offer to surrender on condition that the Emperor be preserved (a condition Washington, in the end, accepted). Nor did it mention the opposition of senior officials to bombing a city without warning – a target that only the most wilfully self-deceived could construe as 'military'; or the Soviet Union's role in the timing of the bomb; or the USSBS's (contested) claim that a defeated Japan would have surrendered without the bomb or an American invasion. Most erroneously it argued that a land invasion of Japan and the atomic weapons were mutually exclusive – a case of 'either-or'. This flawed nexus ignored the fact that Truman and senior military advisers had all but abandoned the land invasion by early July 1945, irrespective of whether Trinity bathed Alamogordo in neutrons.

As to Stimson's claim that America used the bomb reluctantly – 'our least abhorrent choice' – suggesting that Washington and the Pentagon had wrestled painfully with alternatives, the facts demonstrate precisely the opposite. Everyone involved expected, indeed hoped, to use the bomb as soon as possible, and gave no serious consideration to any other course of action. The Target and Interim Committees swiftly dispensed with alternatives – for example, a warning, a demonstration, or attacking a genuine military target. Indeed, Byrnes rejected these over lunch in the Pentagon – arguing that a warning imperilled the lives of Allied POWs whom the Japanese would move to the target area (the US Air Force had shown no such restraint in the conventional air war, which daily endangered POWs). As well as this, he argued, a demonstration might be a dud (unlikely, given Trinity's success, and the fact that Manhattan scientists saw no need even to test the gun-type uranium bomb used on Hiroshima); that they had only two bombs (untrue – at least three were prepared for August, and several in line for September through to November); and that there were no military targets big enough to contain the bomb. In fact, Truk Naval Base was considered and rejected; no other military target was seriously examined; only Kokura, a city containing a large arsenal, came close to that description, and the attempt to bomb it was abandoned due to the weather.

The nuclear attacks were an active choice, a desirable outcome, not a regrettable or painful last resort, as Stimson insisted. The administration never seriously considered any alternative; its members focused on how, not whether, to use atomic weapons. Every high office-holder believed the bomb would be dropped if Trinity proved successful. 'I never had any doubt it should be used,' Truman said on many occasions. 'The decision,' wrote Churchill later, 'whether or not to use the atomic bomb to compel the surrender of Japan was never an issue.' Groves dismissed Truman's role as inconsequential. 'Truman's decision,' the general wrote, 'was one of non-interference – basically a decision not to upset the existing plans.'

In this frame, a complete Japanese surrender at an awkward time – that is, after Trinity's success and before the bombs arrived on Tinian – would have frustrated any hope of using the weapons. This is not to impute sinister motives to any man, whose heart and mind we may never truly know; simply to assert that Washington and the Pentagon were absolutely determined to use the two atomic bombs. 'American leaders did not cast policy in order to avoid using the atomic weapons,' in the historian Barton Bernstein's view.
 
MacArthur made his support for an invasion clear in a letter to the Joint Chiefs of Staff which I referred to in April. He was aware that some of the Admirals and airmen were not keen on the idea of an invasion. It's why he argues against non decisive operations around Japan or an attempt to force a surrender by bombing (obviously conventional) alone.

MacArthur's views carried the day in June when the invasion of Kyushu became the official US policy. At the June 18th meeting there was unanimous agreement that the Kyushu operation should go ahead. This is reiterated several times in the minutes to which someone else has helpfully posted a link, saving me more typing and exposure to accusations of 'partial quotes'.

As of June 18th 1945 an invasion of Japan was the number one option for the Allies.

I don't believe that the Americans were reluctant to use the bombs, here we agree again. Here again the spectre of Soviet intervention (European states from the Baltic to the Mediterranean had just fallen under her influence) raises its head. Not everybody agreed that a direct military use with no warning was the way they should be used though.

There were serious and prolonged efforts by people involved in the Manhattan project and all arms of the Forces and Administration to somehow avoid a first military use of the new weapons against a Japanese target. This included everything from explicit warnings (not just references to complete and utter destruction) to demonstrations. Again, it was the scientific panel of the Interim Committee who, regretfully it seems, recommended that there was no alternative to a direct military use. This contradicts the notion that Washington and the Pentagon were determined to use the bombs against a Japanese target. Some may have been, but many were not and made their views clear. Many did not think it necessary to drop a bomb on Japan to, in Churchill's words, 'compel the surrender of Japan'. None of this amounts to a reluctance to use the bombs, just a debate about how that should be done.

As for targeting, the Interim Committee recommended on several occasions the sort of target it thought best. On 25th June, before the decision to use the weapon was confirmed it reiterated its earlier recommendations :

"the weapon should be used against Japan at the earliest opportunity, that it be used without warning, and that it be used on a dual target, namely, a military installation or war plant surrounded by or adjacent to homes or other structures most susceptible to damage."

On 31st May the committee had been more explicit, agreeing an ideal target as "a war plant employing a large number of workers and surrounded by workers' housing"

It was the Targeting Committee that decided against aiming at a 'war plant' recommended by the Interim Committee as these were generally on the fringes of the list of potential target cities. It decided:

"to endeavour to place first gadget in center of selected city; that is, not to allow for 1 or 2 further gadgets for complete destruction"

Cheers

Steve
 
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At the June 18th meeting there was unanimous agreement that the Kyushu operation should go ahead. This is reiterated several times in the minutes to which someone else has helpfully posted a link, saving me more typing and exposure to accusations of 'partial quotes'. As of June 18th 1945 an invasion of Japan was the number one option for the Allies.
The operation was directed to be carried, I agree to that, what I said before was that it was highly unlikely to be accomplished after the days following June 18th due to the possible Japanese resistance and Presidents concern of losses of US soldiers.

As I said, in the days following, estimates of dramatically higher casualties further doomed the invasion plan. Nimitz, King and MacArthur all warned of a greater number of dead and missing than presented at the 18 June meeting. Even MacArthur ratcheted up his modest estimate, to 50,800 casualties in the first 30 days. No one could provide accurate projections, of course, and Truman never received a clear or unanimous calculation of likely losses.

The land invasion plans were dealt a terminal blow in early July, that is even before the Trinity.

There were serious and prolonged efforts by people involved in the Manhattan project and all arms of the Forces and Administration to somehow avoid a first military use of the new weapons against a Japanese target. This included everything from explicit warnings (not just references to complete and utter destruction) to demonstrations.
Not exactly, there were serious efforts under the same agenda - unconditional surrender which was not exactly explained and understood even by some administration members. Japanese since mid July were ready to surrender under specific conditions, which eventually were dropped for one - preserving the Emperor position. Which eventually was accepted by US.

It is interesting that such proposition was raised as early as June 6th by Stimson. In a private chat with the President, he raised the possibility of achieving 'all our strategic objectives' without the insistence on unconditional terms. Implicit here was the gift of the Emperor. Allow this and the 'liberal men' in Tokyo would have a potent political weapon against their fanatical colleagues; or so Stimson hoped. Surely a class existed within Japan 'with whom we can make proper terms', he repeated in his diary on 18 June, the night of the meeting with the Joint Chiefs; surely the Japanese can be made to respond peacefully to a 'last chance' warning, he wrote, on the 19th. Hitherto, these had been his private musings; henceforth the embattled War Secretary intended to make a more public stand – in line with Grew's moderation.
That day, in talks with Grew and Forrestal, Stimson expressed his abhorrence of the (at that time) anticipated cave-by-cave attack on the Japanese homeland. Were there not reasonable elements within the Japanese regime, he wondered, who resisted Tokyo's death wish? Grew agreed: '[A]ll the blustering the Japanese were now doing about fighting to the last meant nothing; there might be important things going on in the minds of the leaders of Japan at the moment of a quite contrary character*…'
America should clarify what it meant by 'unconditional surrender', Grew advised. For him, like Stimson, it meant letting the Japanese determine their post-war political structure – including, if they desired, the Imperial line – so long as it enshrined freedom of thought and speech, and human rights, and contained no militaristic element. It meant allowing Japan to retain the Emperor as a figurehead. Presented in those terms, he argued, Japan's rulers would 'desist from further hostilities'. The preservation of the throne and the 'non-molestation' of Hirohito, Grew later advised Truman, 'were likely to be irreducible Japanese terms'. The intelligence community lent weight to these deliberations: in early July the Combined Intelligence Committee warned that Japan equated 'unconditional surrender' with the loss of the Emperor and 'virtual extinction'. In this light, it suggested, a promise to retain the Emperor might compel the Japanese to disarm and relinquish all territory.


But it was to no avail. A new, hardline force had entered the Truman administration. On his swearing in as Secretary of State, on 3 July, Byrnes swiftly assumed greater powers than his position entailed. He acted in some ways as a de facto president – and moved at once to stifle the air of compromise. In coming weeks, Truman sat back to watch Byrnes tear apart these dovish tendencies, stifle any softening of the surrender terms and thwart Stimson's expectation of an invitation to Potsdam (the War Secretary would invite himself and attend under his own steam). Byrnes ensured that Grew, McCloy and Bard (hitherto a member of the Interim Committee) were excluded from critical meetings and their views largely ignored.
Under the new Secretary, the State Department pointedly refused to entertain ideas about retaining the Emperor. The President would be 'crucified' if he accepted anything less than unconditional surrender, Byrnes, with an eye on public feeling, confided to his secretary. Curiously, official US foreign policy (on unconditional surrender) made no direct reference to the Emperor – stating only that Japan must disarm and dismantle its military system – a state of ambiguity that left Hirohito's fate the subject of raging debate and confusion in Washington and Tokyo. Nowhere was the debate more intense than in the State Department under Byrnes, which affirmed that the 'only terms' on which America would deal with Japan were those listed under 'unconditional surrender' – as announced by Roosevelt at Casablanca in 1943 – which prescribed the elimination of the military system, implicitly including Hirohito as supreme commander.
The State Department duly fell in step with Byrnes' hardline view. The new Secretary had influential backers: Assistant State Secretary Dean Acheson, Director of the War Department's Office of Facts and Figures Archie MacLeish and their supporters reacted violently to any suggestion of retention of the Emperor: it would be seen as exonerating a war criminal and allowing an abhorrent enemy to set the terms of surrender; the Emperor stood at the pinnacle of an odious military system, and his continuation, even as a powerless figurehead, risked the resurgence of that system. In any case, the perpetrators of Pearl Harbor, Bataan and innumerable atrocities against prisoners and civilians were in no position to impose conditions on America. The State Department hammered out these views at a staff meeting on 7 July, over which Grew awkwardly presided as Acting Secretary (Byrnes being away). Nor were there any 'liberal-minded Japanese', the hardliners argued.
 
I think you are conflating two separate arguments here. The decision to 'drop the bomb' versus other alternatives and the debate about the terms of Japanese surrender.

It is no secret that at least from April 1945 when the Suzuki Cabinet came to power, the Japanese were actively seeking ways to end the war. For one reason or another it wasn't until the end of June that the Japanese finally approached the Soviet government directly, via their ambassador in Moscow (Sato I think), to seek Soviet mediation. The Americans intercepted and read all the messages between Sato and Tokyo as the Russians prevaricated and knew exactly what the Japanese would and would not accept.

On 29th June McCloy wrote to Stimpson about the way in which Japan might be warned of an attack and the terms that might be offered for her surrender. This was really the beginnings of what would become, a month later, the Potsdam Declaration.

Point 3 read:

"Maintenance of the Dynasty. This point seems to be the most controversial one and one on which there is a split of opinion in the State Department. The draft suggests the language we have used in the memorandum to the President. This may cause repercussions at home but without it those who seem to know most about Japan feel there would be very little likelihood of acceptance."

Even after the decision to use the bombs were taken there was an admission that the Emperor would probably have to remain albeit in a somewhat emasculated capacity. This decision had already been taken before the 7th July meeting you refer to. The hardliners in the State Department and elsewhere would lose this argument.

Cheers

Steve
 
Even after the decision to use the bombs were taken there was an admission that the Emperor would probably have to remain albeit in a somewhat emasculated capacity. This decision had already been taken before the 7th July meeting you refer to. The hardliners in the State Department and elsewhere would lose this argument.

No, it was commonly viewed that Emperor had to remain to ensure a post war stability in Japan. However such information was not indicated in Potsdam Declaration nor any other communication.
So no, the hardliners achieved their point even despite Stimson tried a few times to change the text of the Declaration. On 24th in act of extraordinary persistence, he made one last tilt at retaining the original wording of the Potsdam Declaration, now moving towards its final draft. Byrnes had cut Stimson's critical sentence that offered the Japanese people 'a constitutional monarchy under the present dynasty*…'. (In so doing, Byrnes had acted with the support of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who recommended on 17*July that the offending phrase be struck out, lest 'radical elements in Japan construed [it] as a commitment to continue the institution of the Emperor and Emperor worship'. It remains a mystery why the Chiefs did this, as they had previously stressed the vital role of the Emperor in quelling those very 'radical elements' at the surrender. The act smacked of political intervention.)

And so, on 24 July, as Truman awaited Chinese leader Chiang Kai-shek's approval of the text, Stimson requested that the sentence be reinstated: 'The insertion*… might be just the thing that would make or mar their acceptance.' The President firmly rebuffed him: Truman's and Byrnes' minds were made up; the text could not be changed. The timely arrival of a Magic intercept of 21 July helped to clinch the decision: the cable, sent in the Emperor's name, declared that the Japanese would fight to the last man unless America modified the surrender terms. As a last resort, Stimson urged Truman to reassure the Japanese 'through diplomatic channels, if it was found that they were hanging fire on that one point [retention of the Emperor]'. The President glibly replied that he 'had it in mind, and that he would take care of it'.


To break the impasse, Japan must be made to surrender swiftly. Truman and Churchill acted: at the bracing hour of 7am on 26 July 1945,* outside the Cecilienhof Palace, the American and British delegations issued the Potsdam Proclamation [Declaration] – to a ravenous press. The final version enshrined Byrnes' amendments: it excised any reference to the Emperor or constitutional monarchy; removed the Soviet Union's name; and made no mention of the atomic bomb.

The time had come, it declared, for Japan, 'to decide whether she will continue to be controlled by those self-willed militaristic advisers whose unintelligent calculations have brought the Empire*of Japan to the threshold of annihilation, or whether she will follow the path of reason. Following are our terms. We will not deviate from them. There are no alternatives. We shall brook no delay …'
The Declaration called for the destruction of Japan's war-making powers; the elimination 'for all time' of the authority and influence of those who had misled the Japanese people 'into embarking on world conquest'; and the complete disarmament of the Japanese forces. Her vanquished armies would be allowed to return home and the Japanese people permitted to pursue peaceful industries, and enjoy freedom of speech, religion and assembly. War criminals would meet stern justice. The occupying forces would be withdrawn only after Japan had established, 'in accordance with the freely expressed will of the people', a peaceful, democratic government.


The same day Declaration was presented to public Tokyo's moderates defied the hardliners by daring to issue an unusually explicit public offer to surrender, on condition the Emperor be allowed to stay on the throne. The offer made front-page headlines in America: Japan 'pleads for an easing of unconditional surrender', reported the International Herald Tribune in a 'clear-cut peace bid in the face of devastating American and aerial attacks'; 'Tokyo Radio,' reported the Stars and Stripes, 'in a startlingly frank broadcast beamed to the US*… said today [26 July] that Japan is ready to call off the war if the US will modify its peace terms.'

However, the direct response to the Declaration was simple - it was ignored as it did not provide any assurance of the Emperor fate. The three 'moderates' on the Supreme Council, conscious of the disaster facing Japan, were anxious to secure an 'honourable' peace. Two points on the Declaration met with subdued approval: the Soviet Union was not a signatory, which suggested Moscow remained neutral and encouraged Togo to continue his efforts to pursue Soviet mediation; and the Japanese people were offered, of their 'freely expressed will', the opportunity to establish the government of their choice. However, the document's overbearing tone, ominous references to 'war criminals' and 'occupying forces' and, most importantly, its ambiguity in relation to the Emperor, were less palatable; indeed, they formed the topics of intense discussion with Hirohito that morning – in two separate meetings with Togo and Kido: did the Allies mean to preserve or punish him? And who were the self-willed militaristic advisers whose 'unintelligent calculations' had brought the Empire of Japan to the threshold of annihilation?
 
And yet, and yet, we have today a Japanese Emperor on the throne. QED.
The Potsdam Declaration talked tough and did indeed make no specific warning about the imminent nuclear assault on Japan, but the fact that the Dynasty would remain had been accepted by the administration.

The 'Magic' intercepts make it clear that Sato was arguing for acceptance of the terms (if they can be called that) of the Potsdam Declaration, arguing that the example of Germany promised some amelioration of the harshest conditions. This is exactly what happened.

Cheers

Steve
 
Steve, we have him because of different event. That Americans would eventually accept Japanese term was not stated in Declaration and not in any official public communication until August 10th.

Sato and few other member such as Yonai were eager to accept Declaration under same term - preservation of Emperor. However the other side, militarists or hardliners such as Anami, Umezu and Toyoda, were inclined to continue the war until the Soviet Invasion when most of their arguments vanished as Kwantung Army was crushed. In that event they had added further terms (or demands, depends how one would call them) :
- that Japanese forces be allowed voluntarily to withdraw;
- that alleged war criminals be tried by the Japanese government;
- and that Japan's mainland territory remain free of foreign occupation.
The debate over those paths - with one or four terms continued until Emperor acted.

At 7am 10th August 1945 Domei News dispatched Tokyo's formal surrender to Washington via the Swiss Chargé d'Affaires in Berne – by Morse. The Japanese government, the statement said, having failed to achieve a peaceful resolution through the offices of the Soviet Union, was 'ready to accept the terms' of the Potsdam Declaration, on the understanding that it would not 'comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler'.

The Japanese insistence on a single condition perplexed Truman's cabinet, committed as they were to the mantra of unconditional surrender. The President canvassed his colleagues' views at a meeting that morning. Should they accept the condition? Yes, said Leahy: the Emperor's future was a minor matter compared with delaying victory. Yes, said Stimson, who more persuasively argued that America needed Hirohito to pacify the scattered Imperial Army and avoid 'a*score of bloody Iwo Jimas and Okinawas all over China and the New Netherlands [sic]'. Later Stimson gave another, more pressing reason to accept: 'To get the [Japanese] homeland into our hands before the Russians could put in any substantial claim to occupy and rule it.'
No, said Byrnes. He rejected his colleagues' consensus; he saw no reason openly to accept the Japanese demand, for which a furious American public would 'crucify' the President. Why, Byrnes, asked, should we offer the Japanese easier terms now the Allies possessed bigger sticks: that is, the atomic bomb and the Soviet army?

'Ate lunch at my desk,' Truman jotted down later, mightily pleased with Byrnes' contribution. 'They wanted to make a condition precedent to the surrender*… They wanted to keep the Emperor. We told 'em we'd tell 'em how to keep him, but we'd make the terms.' Here was the first clear admission of a presidential compromise: Washington would tolerate Hirohito's survival as a post-war figurehead in order to tame the Japanese forces. The political arguments that had demanded his head as a war criminal were gossamer on the wind.
The diplomatic challenge was how to frame the concession without seeming weak; in short, how to impose a 'conditional unconditional surrender'? The wily Byrnes had the answer. Not for nothing had Stalin called Byrnes 'the most honest horse thief he had ever met'. Byrnes drafted a compromise that read as an ultimatum. In fact, the 'Byrnes Note', a single sheet of paper, was a little masterpiece of amenable diktat: it gave while appearing to take; it demanded an end to the Japanese military regime while promising the people self-government; it stripped Hirohito of his powers as warlord while re-crowning him 'peacemaker' – all in the service of America.
'From the moment of the surrender,' the Byrnes Note stated, 'the authority of the Emperor shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers*…' Hirohito 'shall issue his commands to all the Japanese military, navy and air authorities and to all the forces under their control wherever located to cease active operations and to surrender their arms*… The ultimate form of government of Japan shall* … be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people.'
In offering part of what the Japanese wanted, Byrnes' supple diplomacy clarified, for the first time, Hirohito's post-war role. He framed the concession as a stern demand lest the press and the American people interpreted the Note as a compromise, which is precisely what it was.



If the Potsdam Declaration would openly state that Hirohito position as the Emperor would be maintained than lot could be avoided, however it did not. And in the actual surrender declaration Japanese Government had to bring that matter again, to which US finally agreed.
 
But it wasn't a new idea at the beginning of August. The Americans had been aware of and discussed the possibility of allowing the Dynasty to continue for months beforehand. The mitigation of the surrender terms, in that the Japanese kept their Emperor, was exactly what Sato and others had hoped for. It was a pragmatic acceptance by the Americans that this was the lesser of two evils, the other being that disparate elements of the Japanese military might continue to fight all over East Asia. It was a compromise, but hardly surprising, I believe that many in the Administration and Military accepted privately in early 1945 that this was what it would take to get a Japanese surrender.
Cheers
Steve
 
Alright, I understand that and can believe in that. After all more than a few people discussed it with President long before.

However it did not become part of the US policy, it was not officially declared and eventually did not make it into Potsdam Declaration. So that idea remained idea, which is outstanding, as they knew to what Japanese Government would be ready to surrender. Instead of assuring Japanese Government that Emperor line will be preserved they deliberately omitted it.



Besides, apparently Japanese Prime Minister on 15th August speech will apologize and use specific words as "aggression" in regard to Japanese actions, according NHK. He intends to refer to previous Prime Minister, Tomiichi Murayama who declared a heartfelt apology in 1995. The complete text was not presented however, I suppose they are still working on it.
 
There were certainly widely differing opinions on the necessity of a direct invasion, but uncertain that it can be categorically stated that the invasion was on or off. The invasion of Kyushu (Operation Downfall" was not planned until 1 December whilst Coronet was not planned until the following March. There was a lot of tooing and froing going on in the meantime, much as had occurred prior to OVERLORD.

One thing to remember, is that the operation was not directly under the control solely by the US military. It was an operation under the responsibility of the JCS, with committments having been given to many other nations also contributing. Churchill had been advised the mission would go ahead, and preparations for a British and Commonwealth contribution were well under way. Much of the BPF efforts and losses were geared to achieving the right conditions for invasion. If nothing else, a back down by the US after February would have virtually cost the US their position as the leaders of the western alliance, as virtually every allied country would have been less than impressed with a US pull out.

Chapter 13: "DOWNFALL"- The Plan for the Invasion of Japan
 
When you are at war and have suffered tens of thousands of casualties, the use of anohter, bigger weapon doesn't seem like a subjsct that would raise much debate. The main question in my mind is why we would choose to drop it on a civilian city rather than, say, the biggest military base in Japan. Not having been there, I can't say why. But the use of it after it was shown to work is very hard to argue against if you wanted to avoid invasion casualties.

The decision was made by Truman and then implemented by the USAAF together with the Navy to deliver the bomb. As it turned out, we lost the delivery ship and a good deal of the crew on the way home and inspired the movie Jaws. The decision to drop it affected a LOT of Japanese, but it did end the war. I would not have wanted to make the decision or drop the bomb ... if I had known what it would do. If you didn't specifically know what it would do, it was just another bomb to drop among tens of thousands already dropped.

I'm not really sure the crew of the Enola Gay knew what would happen. I think they were expecting a "bigger explosion," but not what they saw. They practiced the drop and turn, to be sure, but if you had not seen the test of the bomb, you would probably think the maneuver was just another idiotic precaution from the people above. When the shock wave caught up with tghem, I bet the crew was a lot more aware of what they just did.

One thing is for sure, the crew of Bocks Car was VERY aware of what was going to happen assuming the bomb worked. Had Japan not surrendered at that point, I don't think there were more bombs ... maybe one more. But we were short of nuclear material for even a few more after that.

I don't think there will ever be a definitive memo or minutes of the meeting to tell us exactly what was said and what went on when the decision was made, but it would be VERY nice to have for posterity so we could see the logic or emotion involved. It might help someone later, perhaps in another nation, not to go down that path again.

I am not sure that people who blow up bombs in shopping malls would hesitate at all to explode an atomic one. If causing innocent casualties is "OK" with some group, then causing a LOT of them might also be "OK." I am reminded of the events of September 11 when we were attacked. Nobody who died had anything to do with whatever wrongs were done to incite the attack.

I'm not sure what is wrong with these people, but I'm also not sure I care. I don't like "witch hunts" as a rule, but getting rid of people who would indiscriminently kill innocent others might might be food for thought.

The problem would be knowing when you were finished. You could wind up becomming just like the people you are trying to elminate. Deciding to terminate a random someone else who had nothing to do with your gripe or compaint is never OK and should NOT be tolerated by any society in any form.
 
One thing to remember, is that the operation was not directly under the control solely by the US military. It was an operation under the responsibility of the JCS, with committments having been given to many other nations also contributing.

True, but everyone on the US side was unhappy about this. The politicians were worried about the increased influence this would give the British and others in the region post war. The military commanders had more pragmatic concerns about any kind of joint command. There was no consummate military politician like Eisenhower in the Far East to hold things together, paper over cracks and, when required, bang heads together. 'Overlord' had not run as seamlessly as some histories would have us believe, but, unlike it, operations against Japan would be a predominately US affair, and the Americans intended to run it.
As the minutes of that now oft' quoted June meeting state:

"In considering the matter of command and control in the Pacific war, which the British want to raise at the next conference, we must bear in mind that anything smacking of combined command in the Pacific might increase the difficulties with Russia and perhaps China. Furthermore the obvious inefficiencies of combined command may directly result in increased cost in resources and American lives."

A quick scan of the chapter linked to above doesn't even mention any allied troops.

Cheers

Steve
 
There are all sorts of cultural and modern political aspects to this. The Anglo-Americans and their western allies tend to remember and commemorate a conflict which for them now lies firmly in the past and most certainly shouldn't have any bearing on their relationships with Japan today. This is not always the case in Asia.
Cheers
Steve
 
There are all sorts of cultural and modern political aspects to this. The Anglo-Americans and their western allies tend to remember and commemorate a conflict which for them now lies firmly in the past and most certainly shouldn't have any bearing on their relationships with Japan today. This is not always the case in Asia.
Cheers
Steve

Is China still bearing grudges over the Boxer Rebellion?

220px-China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg
 
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Is China still bearing grudges over the Boxer Rebellion?

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You might as well ask whether the Indians bear grudges over the 'Indian Mutiny'. These things are not forgotten, but aren't be allowed to interfere with business. The relevant European powers are not exactly China's neighbours either. The only Asian member of the eight nation alliance was Japan, and there are more recent axes for the Chinese to grind with them.
Cheers
Steve
 
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China's past is being lived out in her present. For centuries she was the middle kingdom, to which the surrounding lesser nations brought tribute. Though her descent took nearly 300 years to achieve, and the first half of the 20th century marked by war and violence, China's successive govts have never taken their eyes off that visionary prize

Japan too has held close its dream of Asian leadership. It was THE reason she fought the last war. Though militarism seems to have been exorcised from the japanese national image, domination of some sort has never been far from their agenda either.

It is the makings of the next major conflict in Asia, particularly as the US power and influence wanes.

I think the future flashpoints in Asia may well be Taiwan and/or Korea, as both these behemoths have historical links to both regions
 

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