A-10 to the Ukrainians? Recent comments by the Air Force secretary suggest a way out for the USAF from A-10 ownership

[GrauGeist]

Up through 1942, Luftwaffe pilots received between 13 and 20 months of training depending on their assignment.

The training time kept being shortened between 1942 through 1944 and by war's end, this was literally down to weeks. Many of these pilots did not survive their first sortie.

The situation in Ukraine is not desperate enough to toss cannon fodder at the Russians - the longer the Ukrainian pilots take to train, the more efficient and effective they will be with their equipment (and this can be said for their ground-pounding counterparts working up with Western AFVs and weapons systems, too).

 

[Admiral Beez]

This is from Air Force Magazine, an official publication of the USAF

Ukraine Flies ‘Suicide Missions’ With MiGs, Awaits U.S. Decision on F-16 Training | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Ukrainians described the challenges they face flying MiGs against newer Russian jets as they wait for a U.S. decision on F-16 training.

www.airforcemag.com

Thanks for sharing. By that article, it appears that as of July 8, 2022 the US had no training planned or in place.

"On training of pilots, there are no current plans to train Ukraine on any air platform other than those that they are using every day effectively in the battle right now," a senior defense official said in response to a question from Air Force Magazine at a July 8 Pentagon briefing."

Of course the Defence Department doesn't want to show all its cards. But this does suggest that from before the invasion to at least July, no training on the F-16 took place. This is what I'm getting at in my posts above, where I ask what's taking so long. I understand that the training, parts/maintenance and preparation phase takes a long time, but why did the US government wait until mid July or later to make a decision on providing F-16s? Had such training begun in, say April or May, would the UAF see the F-16 in Dec?

 

[GrauGeist]

Here is a very detailed and well rounded artical on both the A-10 and F-16 in regards to Ukraine:

The US military now seems open to gifting Ukraine new fighter jets, but what type? - Breaking Defense

"There's US[-made], there's Gripen out of Sweden, there's the Eurofighter, there's the Rafale [from France],” said Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. CQ Brown. Even the venerable A-10 hasn't been ruled out.

breakingdefense.com

 

[SaparotRob]

I really think I understand and share in The Admiral's frustration. I know it takes a while to set everything up and hate that the necessary steps weren't set up sooner. The sooner the forces of Evil are stopped, the better the the world can be. I don't want to get a Shortround6 lecture from FLYBOYJ or Der Eagle but I like to think there's more going on then we know. I like to think it's already happening.

 

[GrauGeist]

There may be more going on than is being said.

I've mentioned that before in the other thread.

In regards to F-16s for Ukraine, there is this from June of last year:

Lockheed Martin offers Ukraine F-16 fighter jet - U.S.-Ukraine Business Council (USUBC)

<p><img alt="" src="/images/defence blog.png" style="float:left; height:99px; width:110px" />Defence Blog, Kyiv, Ukraine,</p><p>June17, Fri, 2021</p>

www.usubc.org

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't want to get a Shortround6 lecture from FLYBOYJ or Der Eagle but I like to think there's more going on then we know.

Damn…

Sorry.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I like to think it's already happening.

I am sure there is.

*I kept it short. Not wanting to lecture.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't want to get a Shortround6 lecture from FLYBOYJ or Der Eagle…

Relax, don't get your nickers in a bunch…stop being so uptight.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Relax, don't get your nickers in a bunch…stop being so uptight.

He's not the uptight one, Groucho.

 

[SaparotRob]

Groucho is my Lord.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Groucho Marx?

 

[SaparotRob]

I have always been a Groucho Marxist. Mel Brooks is his Prophet.

Hello, I must be going.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Fair enough. So, what is a realistic date we can see UAF F-16s? Presumably there are UAF pilots and ground and parts/logistics personnel in Europe training now on the F-16 and preparing a supply chain and maintenance/support plan. Do you think we'll see UAF F-16s before end of year, or before the one year anniversary in Feb 2023?

Feb is a realistic goal, although that too might slip its gears a little depending on factors that are hard to foresee.

According to what I've read, the decision to start this training was taken a month ago, but I haven't read anything about its progress or what stage it's in, for obvious reasons.

This is from Air Force Magazine, an official publication of the USAF

Ukraine Flies ‘Suicide Missions’ With MiGs, Awaits U.S. Decision on F-16 Training | Air & Space Forces Magazine

Ukrainians described the challenges they face flying MiGs against newer Russian jets as they wait for a U.S. decision on F-16 training.

www.airforcemag.com

I was under the perhaps-mistaken impression that this decision had already been taken in the positive. I'll have to go look up what I read a while back to see if I misread; so what I wrote above may be wrong.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You can't wiggle your nose or nod your head and 4 weeks later jets magically appear, pilots can fly them, and maintenance personnel have the knowledge to troubleshoot and keep them in the air.

View attachment 683812

View attachment 683813

Two more gals I had a mean crush on as a boy.

 

[special ed]

Even in our info leaky world, there is always something going on that "we" don't know about. For instance the "red Eagles" at Tonopah and later the F-117 at the same base. One of the main reasons MacNamara wanted to change the aircraft designations was because it was too confusing for the college boys to know if they were voting for money for new planes, new models, or a black program..

 

[ThomasP]

There is already training of UAF plots going on, hosted in other countries. The US is involved in the training, but is still waiting (I think) on congress for the official OK and funding to engage in the training with a larger footprint.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Of course the Defence Department doesn't want to show all its cards. But this does suggest that from before the invasion to at least July, no training on the F-16 took place. This is what I'm getting at in my posts above, where I ask what's taking so long. I understand that the training, parts/maintenance and preparation phase takes a long time, but why did the US government wait until mid July or later to make a decision on providing F-16s? Had such training begun in, say April or May, would the UAF see the F-16 in Dec?

That's something to ask someone in the DoD. I think this is slow process is due to getting approval from congress and a buy in from other allies. Then it's a matter of funding. Even then your timeline for training and deployment under the current conditions is still very wishful.

 

[Dimlee]

Most likely yes. I've recounted several times how it took the 301st TFW at my base 8-9 months to be declared operational after transitioning from F-4Es to F-16As -- and those were pilots who spoke English and were familiar with the English measurements American planes use.

Probably, their training schedule was 40 hours per week or close to that?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Probably, their training schedule was 40 hours per week or close to that?

Perhaps. You're right that as reservists they had a lower-intensity training schedule. You may want to counterbalance that with the fact that their understanding of instrumentation was more natural, that they were already used to thinking in English rather than metric readouts, that their trainers were speaking to them in their native tongue, things like that. Learning how a Sidewinder works, learning how to use an infrared pod they have no experience with, all these things take time. For anybody.

I'm not saying anything unwholesome about UAF pilots, who have definitely shown their mustard in the last six months -- and I have no doubt they can and will master these fighting platforms. I'm just saying that a training schedule can only intensify so much before you get holes in the ground, and so gathering flight-hours, experience, and thus confidence in a new and foreign airframe will take time.

The days of Don Blakeslee saying "you can learn to fly it on the way to the target" are long gone. All due respect to A Admiral Beez , this stuff takes a lot of time, because the systems are complex.

 

[SaparotRob]

As long as we're unloading all kinds of stuff to Ukraine, how difficult would it be to transition from Mi-8 helicopters to CH-47s? There's got to be a buttload of those lying around.