A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

[pinsog]

Nonsense. No P-40 pilot would have thought that and at low altitude diving away wasn't much of an option. P-40 successes were mainly due to B'nZ tactics but remember the P-40 rarely fought the A6M3.

Did you read post 170 detailing fight test between Spit V and P40E?

First fight started at 13,000 feet. At 4,000 feet P40E pilot decided there was nothing to gain by staying and disengaged by diving away.

 

[RCAFson]

Spitfire Seafire is a very different beast altogether than a Hurricane. Please don't conflate the arguments.

For the record Spitfire or Seafire > Wildcat / Martlet, with the exception of range,. Range of course is important for naval aircraft. But in all other respects the Spitfire is better.

Hurricane, I'm nowhere near convinced.

What is the maximum dive speed of the Hurricane compared to the Wildcat?

S

The Hurricane's maximum dive speed was 390mph IAS, which means it was effectively unlimited as was the Wildcat's.

Just do the math. The Sea Hurricane was totally superior to the F4F-4. Also see my previous post on this as I added a quote from Lundstrom.

 

[Kevin J]

Spitfire Seafire is a very different beast altogether than a Hurricane. Please don't conflate the arguments.

For the record Spitfire or Seafire > Wildcat / Martlet, with the exception of range,. Range of course is important for naval aircraft. But in all other respects the Spitfire is better.

Hurricane, I'm nowhere near convinced.

What is the maximum dive speed of the Hurricane compared to the Wildcat?

S

IIRC the Hurricane could dive at 450 mph, a Wildcat at over 500 mph. I introduced the Seafire IIc because its a good example of how much slower it was than a Spitfire Vc once you add naval equipment and the Sea Hurricane IIc because its top speed showed what you could do to improve performance by adding individual exhausts. The Aussies got the standard Spitfire Vc with the high rated Merlin 46 but with the Vokes filter designed for tropical use and a 90 gal slipper tank, features that killed performance.

 

[eagledad]

Gentlemen

I came across some total airframe drag in pounds at a speed of 100ft/sec for the Spitfire I and Hurricane I at the following location

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4953/the-aerodynamics-of-the-spitfire.pdf

A similar number for the A6M3 can be found at

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/RAAF_Hap_Trials.pdf

page 27.

Since the airframes of the Spit 5 is very similar to the Spit I, and the Hurricane I is similar to the Hurricane II, the coefficients should be reasonable stand-ins for comparison with the A6M3, and may help explain the reports between Spitfires and Zeroes above. Pf course adding any filters and cannon barrels will increase the drag

(originial post used the term coefficient of drag which is an incorrect description of the numbers presented, I am NOT an aero engineer)

Eagledad

 

[RCAFson]

The Hurricane's maximum dive speed was 390mph IAS, which means it was effectively unlimited as was the Wildcat's.

Just do the math. The Sea Hurricane was totally superior to the F4F-4. Also see my previous post on this as I added a quote from Lundstrom.

To add to this:

All the Fine Young Eagles

Pages 248-249.

After a few rounds from the bar, a discussion developed regarding the merits of the Wildcat versus the Hurricane. It continued until the American issued a challenge they would have four Wildcats at Torbay the following morning. The tactics were simple. Four pairs, each consisting of a Wildcat and a Hurricane, would meet at an agreed upon altitude, in each of the four quadrants of the sky, North. West. South and East of the airport. They would meet, fly in formation for a minute or two, then break up and approach each other head on. From then on it was a straight dogfight, with each pilot trying to get on the other fellow's tail. Flight Commanders were not allowed to fly on either side. We were part of the large audience assembled on the ground to see the show. Everything went according to plan. The aircraft met, flew in formation for a minute or two, and then began dog fighting. In a couple of minutes there were four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats, and they stayed there, to great applause and shouts from the audience below.

After landing, everyone adjourned to the hangar to hash over the situation. The Americans seemed completely nonplused by the turn of events. They could not understand how things could have turned out the way they had. It must have been some kind of aberration that could never happen again, so they issued another challenge for the following afternoon. This time, they announced. Flight Commanders could fly, so I decided to get in on the fun in Hurricane 5485. That afternoon the two readiness aircraft: equipped with depth charges**, were sitting on the tarmac.

"Butch" Washburn and "Gibby" Gibbs were the readiness pilots that day and Butch said to me. "You know Bill, I think we can take on these buggers with those readiness aircraft." "Why not?" I replied … "Have a go." We lined up a fourth pilot and the exercise was carried out all over again with four Hurricanes on the tails of four Wildcats once again. Butch Washburn was so keen that he stayed on the Wildcat's tail until it landed on the runway.

The Americans were forced to admit that the Hurricane was the better aircraft. Even when it was ladened with depth charges. We had a party in the Mess that night with the Americans becoming more generous and more lavish with their praise as the evening wore on. According to some of them, if 128 Squadron, complete with aircraft and personnel, could suddenly be transported to the Pacific Theater, we would make short work of the Japanese Air Force. Yes, it was a great party …
​

The above were Canadian built Hurricane X or XIIs.​

 

[Schweik]

The Hurricane's maximum dive speed was 390mph IAS, which means it was effectively unlimited as was the Wildcat's.

Just do the math. The Sea Hurricane was totally superior to the F4F-4. Also see my previous post on this as I added a quote from Lundstrom.

That is laughable. For one thing, the Hurricane II range was 505 miles per this, Wildcat was 830 miles, 1050 with a 157 gal tank per this

As you know, range is pretty important for naval fighters in particular. There is also the fact that the Wildcat seems to have had a better combat record in the Pacific or in general after 1941.

390 IAS is not unlimited and I'd really like to see hard data comparing the actual dive rates of the two planes. My understanding of the Hurricane was that dive speed was very limited.

I admit was starting to wonder if I'd been wrong about the Hurri all along a few pages ago but the way you do things like combine Spitfire with Hurricane as if they are the same plane and quoting stats like low pressure aileron rolls ... it doesn't seem legit.

S

 

[Schweik]

Gentlemen

I came across some drag coefficients for the Spitfire I and Hurricane I at the following location

https://www.aerosociety.com/media/4953/the-aerodynamics-of-the-spitfire.pdf

A similar coefficient of drag for the A6M3 can be found at

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/RAAF_Hap_Trials.pdf

page 27.

Since the airframes of the Spit 5 is very similar to the Spit I, and the Hurricane I is similar to the Hurricane II, the coefficients should be reasonable stand-ins for comparison with the A6M3, and may help explain the reports between Spitfires and Zeroes above. Pf course adding any filters and cannon barrels will increase the drag

Eagledad

Can you summarize that?

 

[pinsog]

To add to this:

The above were Canadian built Hurricane X or XIIs.​

I believe 1 on 1 vs each other a land based Hurricane and F4F-3 were probably equals with little to chose between them, making a land based Hurricane better performance than an F4F-4 especially in climb. Climb rate of an F4F-4 being pathetic. That being said, the story above of Hurricanes carrying 2 depth charges and flying circles around Wildcats was panned elsewhere as untrue 1. The wildcats were from a US carrier that was in the Pacific at the time 2. I can't think of any ww2 fighter that could carry 500 pounds under each wing and still outfight another fighter

 

[Greyman]

Hurricane Pilot's Notes list 390 IAS for diving, but I've seen dozens of anecdotes/tests of Hurricanes diving up to around 450 IAS.

I have no Pilot's Notes for the Martlet, but the A&AEE tested a Mk.IV up to 460 IAS and reported no serious issues.

Eric Brown notes the dive acceleration of the Hurricane was superior, and I'd guess the lack of automatic boost control in the F4F would be a handicap. Add in the superior rates of roll of the Hurricane ...

 

[Greyman]

Might as well post the whole Eric Brown bit (sorry if it was posted earlier in the thread):

F4F-4 Wildcat Versus Sea Hurricane IIc
Here were two fighters almost evenly matched in combat performance and firepower, with the British fighter holding the edge. The Hurricane could exploit its superior rate of roll, the Wildcat its steeper angle of climb. In a dogfight the Hurricane could outturn the Wildcat, and it could evade an astern attack by half rolling and using its superior acceleration in a dive.
Verdict: This is a combat I have fought a few times in mock trials. The Hurricane could usually get in more camera gun shots than the Wildcat, but for neither was this an easy job. The Hurricane would probably have been more vulnerable to gun strikes than the Wildcat.

 

[pinsog]

Great post Greyman. I'm surprised it didn't out climb the Wildcat. Naval additions must have hurt the Hurricane more than I thought

 

[Greyman]

Well, he did say angle - not rate ...

 

[pinsog]

Good point again. Seems like a significantly higher rate of climb would have been mentioned though

 

[RCAFson]

That is laughable. For one thing, the Hurricane II range was 505 miles per this, Wildcat was 830 miles, 1050 with a 157 gal tank per this

As you know, range is pretty important for naval fighters in particular. There is also the fact that the Wildcat seems to have had a better combat record in the Pacific or in general after 1941.

390 IAS is not unlimited and I'd really like to see hard data comparing the actual dive rates of the two planes. My understanding of the Hurricane was that dive speed was very limited.

I admit was starting to wonder if I'd been wrong about the Hurri all along a few pages ago but the way you do things like combine Spitfire with Hurricane as if they are the same plane and quoting stats like low pressure aileron rolls ... it doesn't seem legit.

S

Again, do the math: 390mph IAS = 624mph TAS at 30K ft, 540mph TAS at 20k ft and 505mph at 15K ft. This means that the aircraft's speed is drag limited rather than structurally limited. You could dive a Hurricane straight down at full throttle from 30K ft and not break it and this was tested in combat.

Just because the Seafire was totally superior to the F4F-4 doesn't mean that the Sea Hurricane wasn't as well.

A Sea Hurricane IB weighed 7000lb and had a peak 1440HP, with same wing area as the F4F. The F4F-3/4 had a maximum 1200hp and weighed 7550/7975lb. It's pretty easy to see which aircraft is going to climb and turn better, especially as the Sea Hurricane has a superior roll rate. The Hurricane X with the more powerful Merlin 20, even with two 350lb depth charges will still have lower wing loading and a superior power to weight ratio than the F4F-4.

Effective combat radius of the F4F-4 and Sea Hurricane I or II was very similar, with the F4F having a only slight edge, because of the superior specific fuel consumption of the Merlin at high power. Air cooled engines being very inefficient at high power so the Merlin uses a lot less fuel during the combat portion of a combat sortie. Theoretical still air range was superior on the F4F-4 but it's actual cruise endurance was only marginally better than a Sea Hurricane when both cruise at Maximum Weak Mixture at the same altitude. To achieve the oft quoted 830 mile range the F4F-4 has to cruise at 161mph at 5Kft. Sea Hurricane IB range was 555 miles at 20Kft at 208mph. Range with two 45IG drop tanks was 1030/1100 miles if the tanks were retained/jettisoned. The Sea Hurricane could carry drop tanks but this was rare on the Sea Hurricane IB, although it was common on the Sea Hurricane II.

 

[RCAFson]

Hurricane Pilot's Notes list 390 IAS for diving, but I've seen dozens of anecdotes/tests of Hurricanes diving up to around 450 IAS.

I have no Pilot's Notes for the Martlet, but the A&AEE tested a Mk.IV up to 460 IAS and reported no serious issues.

Eric Brown notes the dive acceleration of the Hurricane was superior, and I'd guess the lack of automatic boost control in the F4F would be a handicap. Add in the superior rates of roll of the Hurricane ...

This from the F4F-4 Pilot's Handbook:

"(c) Diving

Diving with pull-outs at required velocities
and accelerations has been successfully demon-
strated by the manufacturer of this airplane.

The theoretical terminal velocity of the air-
plane is approximately 475 knots indicated air
speed. It is not expected that this speed will
be reached in service dives. Propeller at 45° pitch."

Basically it's a fancy way of saying that dive speed was drag rather than structurally limited.

Edit: I found a test report where a Hurricane IIB was tested to 397mph IAS (and held there for some seconds) whilst carrying 2 x 500lb bombs. The dive sheared the safety arming pins on the bombs but there was no other structural issues. So I guess that 390mph IAS includes diving with a 1000lb bomb load.

 

[RCAFson]

Might as well post the whole Eric Brown bit (sorry if it was posted earlier in the thread):

F4F-4 Wildcat Versus Sea Hurricane IIc
Here were two fighters almost evenly matched in combat performance and firepower, with the British fighter holding the edge. The Hurricane could exploit its superior rate of roll, the Wildcat its steeper angle of climb. In a dogfight the Hurricane could outturn the Wildcat, and it could evade an astern attack by half rolling and using its superior acceleration in a dive.
Verdict: This is a combat I have fought a few times in mock trials. The Hurricane could usually get in more camera gun shots than the Wildcat, but for neither was this an easy job. The Hurricane would probably have been more vulnerable to gun strikes than the Wildcat.

Brown was familiar with the early model Marlets that were devoid of SS tanks, armour, and had non-folding wings. It is obvious that he confused these with an F4F-4 because the Sea Hurricane IIC climb rate was far superior to the F4F-4, which even at full military power topped out at 1820fps.

F4F-4 climb at 7975lb using full military power:

Hurricane IIB at 8110lb using normal climb power:

and here's a Hurricane IIC at 8410lb:

and it still wins!

of course all these Hurricane tests are using normal climb power. If they used the combat rating climb rates would increase by ~50%.

 

[Greyman]

Again, he mentioned climb angle, not rate.

 

[pinsog]

So you've proven that the F4F-4 was completely defeated by the Zero... Ditto for the P-40.

The RAAF tests only confirmed that anyone who could calculate wing loading already knew, which is that you can't dogfight a Zero and had to use other tactics, to defeat it. And, as I've pointed out, the RAAF tests handicapped the Spitfire by not allowing the use of overboost.

I replied to the F4F-4 in a different message, missed the P40 part.

P40 was significantly faster than a Zero KI43 Hurricane or F4F-4 below 18-20,000 feet.
A P40E could disengage from a Zero, KI43 Hurricane F4F-4 or Spitfire V tropical at will by diving.
Heavy reliable firepower, 6 50's, very effective against Zero.
Anytime a P40 is in trouble, roll over and dive, it's gone, a reliable exit plan in any circumstance where the P40E has altitude and the engine hasn't been hit.
Tough, good pilot armor, allows a few hits from behind while fleeing.
Faster than a tropical Spit V below 16,000 feet

Dang, P40E is 20-25 mph faster than tropical Spit V at 12,000 feet, impressive

 

[pinsog]

Seafire IIC vs Wildcat 6 guns (they don't tell which model)

 

[RCAFson]

Faster than a tropical Spit V below 16,000 feet
View attachment 497796
Dang, P40E is 20-25 mph faster than tropical Spit V at 12,000 feet, impressive

Only if the Spitfire is denied overboost.