A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

[Schweik]

That is a hell of an assumption based on those numbers, I think you'd need a much broader analysis and more data (like perhaps, total claims by type instead of the number of aces with a certain threshold of victories) to draw even preliminary or tentative conclusions. I'd be very surprised indeed if Soviet Hurricane pilots claimed more air to air victories than Yak 1 and 7 pilots did.

The Soviet pilots themselves certainly didn't believe the Hurricane was a better fighter than a Yak 1 or Yak 7. Let alone a Yak 1b or Yak 9 which also had quite light armament.

Similarly, the 109F-2 had very light armament compared to a Hurricane IIB or IIC, but does anyone believe the Hurricane was a better fighter?

 

[Schweik]

I'd also add - I think it was pretty much a consensus in the Med that the MC 202 was a better and more dangerous fighter than any Hurricane.

 

[fubar57]

I've got the book, "Soviet Hurricane Aces of World War 2" which gives all the numbers of aircraft shot down by VVS pilots, not just the aces. I'll get back to you......

 

[fubar57]

Off the get-go, there were 14 Hurricane VVS aces, three pilots with eight or more.

 

[Schweik]

This is an (obviously unofficial, cobbled together) list somebody made of Soviet aces showing what types they flew. Tons of Yak Aces though many of them flew multiple types of planes.

Soviet top Aces of WWII rating

 

[fubar57]

According to the book, Soviet Hurricanes shot down 281 aircraft.

 

[fubar57]

The book "Yakovlev Aces of World War 2" lists only the top 55 Yak aces but the top eight eclipse the Hurricane numbers

 

[fubar57]

Number of Hurricanes sent to the USSR according to the Wiki...

The British archives file AIR 22/310 reports 218 mark IIA sent to Russia or handed over, 22 lost before arrival, 1,884 mark IIB sent or handed over, 278 lost before arrival, 1,182 mark IIC sent or handed over, 46 lost before arrival, 117 rejected, 60 IID sent or handed over, 14 rejected, 30 mark IV handed over, total 3,374 Hurricanes sent or handed over, 346 lost before delivery, 2,897 accepted by the Russians, 131 rejected

 

[Schweik]

Comparing the Yak to the Hurricane is a bit of a challenge though, to be fair to the Hurri, it's more of a generalist whereas the Yak is highly specialized for the Russian conditions. I think the Yak, even the early Yak -1, so long as you got a decently built one (big if) was better for the Soviet -German War where the Soviet fighter pilots were mainly trying to defend the airspace over the battlefield and protect their bombers and ground attack aircraft from being destroyed by predatory Luftwaffe fighters. They did not fight bombers that much and most of the bombers they did encounter were Stukas.

The Hurricane was able to saw down fight fleets of level bombers in the BoB, shoot down tactical and anti-shipping bombers in the Med, take out level bombers and dive bombers in Burma and the Pacific and so on. To shoot down a larger bomber like an He 111 or a G4M I'd rather have a Hurricane IIC than a Yak -1. To survive an encounter against a Bf 109F or Fw 190 though I think I'd rather be in the Yak. Either way you are probably in trouble!

Yak vs. say, a Ki-43 is an interesting proposition. Probably go with the Ki-43 though it would be a tough call. How do their speeds compare under 10,000 ft?

 

[RCAFson]

Books says Vc Trop...

View attachment 547219​

Given the smaller wing and frontal area I can buy extra speed for the C.202 at altitude but I don't buy the climb rate. The advertised power for the VC above is 1475hp and if the Spitfire used overboost and used that power for climb it would make 20k ft in about 5mins.

 

[Greyman]

Yak vs. say, a Ki-43 is an interesting proposition. Probably go with the Ki-43 though it would be a tough call. How do their speeds compare under 10,000 ft?

About 25 mph over a Ki-43 ii and about 45 mph over a Ki-43 i

 

[Milosh]

In Dec '42 there was 136 serviceable Ju87s on the Eastern Front which was over 1000mi long..

Luftwaffe Strength Reports for the Eastern Front, 4th Quarter, 1942

 

[Kevin J]

According to the book, Soviet Hurricanes shot down 281 aircraft.

The early part of the war on the Eastern Front makes for some pretty grim reading not just on the ground but also in the air. Reading those 'aces' books gives the clues as to how the Germans racked up so many victories. So 2800 Hurricane II/b/c required to log up 281 victories. 15100 Yak-1/7's to generate 55 aces? So what's the overall totals for all Yak-1/7 pilots, 1500?

 

[fubar57]

They book also included the Yak-9

 

[Schweik]

But there were definitely more than 55 Soviet pilots who made Ace flying the Yak. A lot more.

Glory to the experten!

However I do agree, circumstances for the Soviet pilots in the first two years of the war were indeed very grim. For one thing the pilot flying a Yak was very lucky, most pilots in action weren't even flying fighters, there were a ton of obsolete bombers and biplane "utility aircraft" and so on getting whacked right and left. Those who were in fighters mostly flew I-153, I-16, LaGG-3, or Mig-3 ... or something even more obscure. A few had Hurricanes which the Soviets considered marginally better than a LaGG-3 I think. A few had Tomahawks or Kittyhawks. The P-39s and Spitfires weren't available until later. And the Spitfires got chewed through pretty quickly in the Kuban.

Loss rates were astronomically high in most parts of the front through Stalingrad, right up to Kursk. Then it started to shift a little. The much improved Yak-1B & Yak 7b, the Yak-9, the La -5, and the P-39s started to make a difference. Tactics improved. The Germans started feeling the strain of constant combat and getting ready for their third Winter was a little too much.

Most of the successful Soviet fighters still didn't have a lot of guns though even by 1944, especially compared to late war German or British fighters.

 

[Schweik]

About 25 mph over a Ki-43 ii and about 45 mph over a Ki-43 i

That is probably enough of an edge for energy fighting.

 

[slaterat]

Its interesting to note that the RAF never thought any P-40 was good enough for service in Northern Europe. They kept their Hurricane IIs till mid 42 , after which they were replaced by Typhoons. In the DAF the Hurricanes were kept in front line service till the Spring of 43 after which they were replaced by Spitfires. In the Burma theater the Hurricanes excellent ground attack abilities and servicability kept in in front line service in large numbers till late 44, after which it was largely replaced by Thunderbolts.

 

[taly01]

Yak vs. say, a Ki-43 is an interesting proposition. Probably go with the Ki-43 though it would be a tough call. How do their speeds compare under 10,000 ft?

To contrast soviet vs japanese fighters are interesting as both were engine HP limited and resource limited. The both made light fighters designed to be flown off average airstrips. Both were also limited to light armanents due to weight and space limitations. Somehow the USSR was able to use small wings for speed and still have landing ability on rough forward strips. The Japanese planes did have a much longer range ability that the USSR never did.

A Ki-43 with a Yak size wing would have been interesting, but would have definately reduced its range due to factors of wing loading and fuel tank space.

 

[Milosh]

The 109 only had 2 mgs and 1 cannon unless gun gondolas were under the wings and Lw pilots were not enthused with them.

Spitfires in the Kuban, late April 1943. Spitfires over the Kuban – Lend-Lease

 

[buffnut453]

And all of this has exactly what relationship to the RAF campaign in Malaya, India and Burma?