A. Dickfeld Fw 190A-4 ???

Discussion in 'Questions on Kits, Decals, Tools and Pilots' started by le_steph40, Mar 30, 2016.

  1. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello all,

    I'm working on another project and I need an "informed" opinion about the FW 190A-4 (W.Nr. 0140750) flown by A. Dickfeld in Tunisia during December 1942 and early January 1943.
    There are apparently no pictures of this aircraft; but, we know that some aircrafts had kept a RLM74/75/76 camo in Tunisia (like the A-4, "white 1", W.Nr. 0145681 flown by K. Bühlingen) and others have been painted in RLM79/80, )like "yellow 1", W.Nr. 0140749 flown by E. Rudorffer, or "white 14" of 4.(or 1)/JG2).
    I found an info on the web telling most W.Nrn from 0140711 to 0140760 provided for Tunisia were repainted in RLM78/79 over the RLM74/75/76 camo.
    My project is the aircraft belonging to the Gruppenkommandeur, do you think that "black men" had time to add RLM80 between 2 missions or should I only apply RLM79 over RLM74/75?

    TIA, regards
    Stéph
     
  2. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    I'll see if I can find an actual photo Steph...

    Untitled2.jpg

    Geo
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    And here other renditions ..

    Fw190A-4 Africa.jpg Fw_190_A4_Dickfeld.jpg
     
  4. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,
    Thank you both for your reply... Just another question: in your opinion, did this aircraft is RLM78/79 over RLM74/75/76 or directly painted RLM78/79 ?
     
  5. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    #5 fubar57, Mar 31, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2016
    Steph, in Osprey's "Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen", it states, "In contrast to the previous Fw 190, the Kommandeur's machine is representative of the freshly-painted, unfaded desert tan finish being worn by many of the Gruppe's Focke Wulfs within weeks of their arrival in Tunisia (although whether such aircraft were delivered in this scheme or were in-theatre resprays is not clear). Note that whereas the aft fuselage band and white spinner tip have been retained, there are no white markings underwing. The overall dark appearance of these machines faded quickly under the hot North African sun". I'll keep looking for other info or a pic.


    Geo
     
  6. Andrew Arthy

    Andrew Arthy Member

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    Hi Steph,

    I'm yet to see a good photograph of Dickfeld's FW 190 A-4, and I'm not sure what photograph/s those colour profiles are based on. There is a photo of Dickfeld's FW 190 in Jochen Prien et al., Jagdfliegerverbände 11/I, after Dickfeld had written it off on 8 January 1943, but it's hard to make out much detail. The photo does confirm that the fuselage cross had a thin black outline, and there is no sign of a II. Gruppe horizontal bar on the white fuselage band. RLM 74/75/76 seems a much more likely paint scheme, given that the aircraft was only based in 'desert' country for a few days before it was written off. A desert tan camouflage scheme was of little use when the unit was based in northern Tunisia in November/December 1942.

    I'd like to see evidence for the Osprey book statement that most of the North African FW 190 A-4s were repainted in desert tan schemes, because the available photographs seem to suggest otherwise. In our Focke-Wulf 190 in North Africa book, Morten and I wrote:

    "While it is often believed that aircraft based in North Africa were painted in desert colours, this was rarely the case for Fw 190s. Most Fw 190s operating in Tunisia retained the standard European scheme of RLM 74/75/76, although there were exceptions. RLM 78/79/80 was the ‘tropical’ scheme used in Tunisia, and it appeared on some II./JG 2, III./ZG 2, and III./SKG 10 Fw 190s. A photograph in Chapter 3 of this book reveals a III./ZG 2 Fw 190 with the scheme applied before arriving in Tunisia. II./Sch.G.2 arrived late in the campaign, and its aircraft were not repainted, retaining RLM 74/75/76."​

    Sorry that the above doesn't really help much with your question, but there is minimal photographic evidence for this aircraft, and in my humble opinion those profiles are really just speculation.

    Cheers,
    Andrew A.
     
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  7. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Andrew,

    Thank you for the reply. I have several book of the serie "Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934-1945" but unfortunatly, I don't have the Teil 11/I.
    I have your book and I see what you mean about Tropical camo of some machines belonging to III./ZG2, the photo is on page 19.
    If I well understood that you say, Dickfeld machine was probably in European camo with white fuselage band, no sign of II Gruppe horizontal bar...
    MP sent for others informations if possible, thank you

    Regards
    Steph
     
  8. Andrew Arthy

    Andrew Arthy Member

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    Hi Steph,

    Adolf Dickfeld's 'home movies' from Tunisia can be seen here: III. Gruppe Jagdgeschwader 2 | Agentur Karl Höffkes. Most, if not all, of the FW 190s there are in RLM 74/75/76. FW 190 A-4 'Black 1 + -' features prominently, so there is a definite chance that it was Dickfeld's.

    Note also FW 190 A-3 WNr. 2287 'Black 1 + -' around 00:03:22, and again at 00:09:00. Dickfeld did fly this aircraft (see the photo in Nauroth's Jagdgeschwader 2 book, p.228), but given the victory tally on the rudder, it wasn't his permanent machine. But if you want to model an FW 190 that Dickfeld definitely flew, WNr. 2287 is the only candidate I'm aware of. It suffered 30 per cent damage in Tunisia on 16 December 1942. It was Wolf von Bülow's aircraft (he's in the cockpit in some shots, and the seven victory tallies on the rudder match with his claims).

    Cheers,
    Andrew A.
     
  9. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Andrew,
    Thank you very much for these informations and the link. A very good help for my project.
    Regards
    Steph
     
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  10. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Great Video Andrew, thanks for sharing!
     
  11. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I went throught the footage again and would say that was taken in three different locations. The first one seems to be recorded possible , somewhere in Italy and its southern part. The North Africa seems to start with the sequence of the transportation using the transport plane ( Ju-52?). The third one seems to be taken in France. The second part was recorded in Tunisia judging by road-signs.The part of the footage seems to show the A-3 kites mostly. However a couple of A-4s can be noticed too I would say. The camo of these kites there seems to be both the dark ( for the MTO and NA ) and light ( for the ETO one ) what can indicate the mix of them at that time.
     
  13. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    found this Steph, while looking for something else....can't confirm it from photo's that I can recall....

    Source: Dickfeld_Fw190A-3_1.jpg Dickfeld_Fw190A-3_2.jpg Kagero Top Colours
     
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  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Yep.. that's the A-3. :thumbright:
     
  15. Andrew Arthy

    Andrew Arthy Member

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    Whoops, I forgot about this Dickfeld aircraft! Need to check all my sources before posting.

    'Black <- + -' is shown in photographs in Mombeeck's Jagdgeschwader 2 Volume 3, page 208, with Richard Übelbacher at the controls. A similarly marked aircraft probably also flown by Dickfeld is in the photo section of Cull's Spitfires Over Sicily, marked 'Black < + -'.

    Cheers,
    Andrew A.
     
  16. rochie

    rochie Well-Known Member

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    Now i like that one Wayne, pic saved in preparation for the A-3 i have in the stash !
    Thanks
     
  17. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    No worries your welcome..:D

    I have one pic off the net of a JG 2 aircraft in Tunisia, wouldn' Fw190_Killskill 221607431273.jpg t mind knowing more about it....
     
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  18. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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  19. fubar57

    fubar57 Well-Known Member

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    Parrot included in the build Wayne?

    Geo
     
  20. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    George if I can Identify the aircraft markings i may just put the bird on the tail...! :D
     
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