The German bomber programs gave birth to a number of clunkers post 1940, the He 177 being the best known. How much the He 111, the workhorse of LW in late 1930s/early 1940s, could be plausibly improved and refined so it can give more useful service than in was historically so? Granted, this still means that a workable fighter escort is needed in most of cases.
A refined & improved He 111?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
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Shortround6
Major General
Depends on how much night bombing it does.
You know that I have championed the He 111 in the past.
In my opinion the He 111 suffered from two problems as it got older.
1. A defensive armament set up not far removed from 1917-18.
2. Inadequate engine power/lack of improved engines.
Everything is not black or white, there are a lot of shades of gray. Quite a few Russian bombers/ground attack planes improved their survivability (losses per number of missions flown) by improving their defensive gun setups. They never got anywhere near being invulnerable though. Same with many other nation's bombers. Improved defensive armament doesn't allow daylight operations when unescorted but may reduce the number of bombers shot down. Is the reduction enough to allow continued operations?
He 111s in Poland and France had defensive armament of three 7.9 mm machine guns on hand aimed mounts with 75 round drum (or double drum) magazines, as you know. Yes they fired about 50% faster than WW I guns. Adding 2-4 more such guns (although one was fixed in the tail, a scare gun of little practical effect) helped but was not a significant improvement.
An Honest power operated dorsal turret with two belt fed 7.9mm or 13 mm machine guns may have improved things considerably. British figured a gun in powered mount was 2-4 times more effective than one in a hand aimed mount? conservatively that would quadruple the firepower of the dorsal position without factoring in the advantage of belt feed over drum magazines.
armament layout of some He 111 verisions
H 111 waist gunner?
Posed picture? Not stepping on the belly gunner
Germans were great at adding extra guns to be used by men already trying to use one gun. Increased the arcs of fire but didn't really increase firepower in any one direction/arc.
Given the size of the He 111 and power problem it had trying to fit more than one power operated mount/turret maynot be a good idea.
He 111 tended to lag behind the JU 88 in getting the latest Jumo 211 engines?
Strengthen wing so under wing loads might be used?
Drop tanks to extend range while keeping the bomb bay for bombs?
You know that I have championed the He 111 in the past.
In my opinion the He 111 suffered from two problems as it got older.
1. A defensive armament set up not far removed from 1917-18.
2. Inadequate engine power/lack of improved engines.
Everything is not black or white, there are a lot of shades of gray. Quite a few Russian bombers/ground attack planes improved their survivability (losses per number of missions flown) by improving their defensive gun setups. They never got anywhere near being invulnerable though. Same with many other nation's bombers. Improved defensive armament doesn't allow daylight operations when unescorted but may reduce the number of bombers shot down. Is the reduction enough to allow continued operations?
He 111s in Poland and France had defensive armament of three 7.9 mm machine guns on hand aimed mounts with 75 round drum (or double drum) magazines, as you know. Yes they fired about 50% faster than WW I guns. Adding 2-4 more such guns (although one was fixed in the tail, a scare gun of little practical effect) helped but was not a significant improvement.
An Honest power operated dorsal turret with two belt fed 7.9mm or 13 mm machine guns may have improved things considerably. British figured a gun in powered mount was 2-4 times more effective than one in a hand aimed mount? conservatively that would quadruple the firepower of the dorsal position without factoring in the advantage of belt feed over drum magazines.
armament layout of some He 111 verisions
H 111 waist gunner?
Posed picture? Not stepping on the belly gunner
Germans were great at adding extra guns to be used by men already trying to use one gun. Increased the arcs of fire but didn't really increase firepower in any one direction/arc.
Given the size of the He 111 and power problem it had trying to fit more than one power operated mount/turret maynot be a good idea.
He 111 tended to lag behind the JU 88 in getting the latest Jumo 211 engines?
Strengthen wing so under wing loads might be used?
Drop tanks to extend range while keeping the bomb bay for bombs?
- Thread starter
- #3
Quick adoption of MG 17s, indeed preferably in twin mounts would've added a lot of defensive firepower, without adding too much weight. Even better if they are not just man-operated. Later, the HMGs will be needed as fighters gain protection; I do have a soft spot for the belt-fed MG FFM, due to it being light & short.
Engine situation - take a page from Wellington, and have BMW 801 installed? Granted, that will mean the Fw 190 switch to DB 601E/605 (the He 177 program takes a hit), since production of BMWs was not that voluminous.
The versions of Jumo 211 being installed were on par with Ju 88 until some time in 1942/43?
How about the bomb tray, so the drag penalty for carrying big bombs?
Engine situation - take a page from Wellington, and have BMW 801 installed? Granted, that will mean the Fw 190 switch to DB 601E/605 (the He 177 program takes a hit), since production of BMWs was not that voluminous.
The versions of Jumo 211 being installed were on par with Ju 88 until some time in 1942/43?
How about the bomb tray, so the drag penalty for carrying big bombs?
Shortround6
Major General
Not sure when the He 111 got the Jumo 211 with intercooler. Not a big change but an extra 100hp or so in an engine out situation might be the difference between getting home or not.
I don't think the manually aimed 20mm guns had anywhere near the range of traverse that the smaller guns did. and without power assist are harder to aim.
I don't know how easy it would be modify the bomb bay for bigger bombs, perhaps four 500 kg bombs, two on top of two? The really big ones might require changing the spar location/s?
I don't think the manually aimed 20mm guns had anywhere near the range of traverse that the smaller guns did. and without power assist are harder to aim.
I don't know how easy it would be modify the bomb bay for bigger bombs, perhaps four 500 kg bombs, two on top of two? The really big ones might require changing the spar location/s?
Hm, this is gonna be interesting. There are many reasons why the He 111 couldn't be improved over what traditionally happened to it - which was very little following the He 111H model, the Zwilling notwithstanding. In 1941, Gunter began a program to improve the aircraft's performance and the He 111V32 was fitted with turbo-supercharged DB 601 engines, but the turbo-superchargers kept failing and it was not proceeded with. He 111H-21s were fitted with Jumo 213 engines, which did give the type good performance, being able to lift a load of 3,000kg and carrying a standard 2,000kg load managed a speed of 298mph.
The one thing that needs to be realised about the He 111 is that it is quite small and inside there is very little room. The cockpit was cramped and had very little space and visibility out that glass tunnel was not the best, in adverse weather it was terrible, apparently. let's not forget the oddity of the pilot having to raise his seat and stick his head out the top to see where he was going whilst taxying. This was a weird compromise for what was supposed to be a modern bomber. Also, the bomb bay is quite small and the size of bombs carried internally is restricted by the single cellular layout, although big ones could be carried externally, with the drag penalty this added. There is also the matter of the bomb doors, they were rubber and just covered the bomb cells' bottom openings, they didn't seal the bay at all. They opened by a lever and shut by springs, - not too sophisticated.
As SR pointed out, lack of suitable defensive armament is a problem. There just isn't any feasible way to improve this. It was makeshift at best, and an improvement in fitting the H-20 with a top turret helped, but that was about as good as it got, or could get within the space available.
Pilots liked the He 111, it was a hardy machine, had docile characteristics and was pleasant to fly, its peculiarities notwithstanding. it could also withstand quite a beating; it had to, really.
The only way to improve it is to build it bigger or smaller. Make it more sophisticated with more powerful engines, better defensive armament, i.e. turrets and be capable of carrying a bigger bomb load across a greater distance at reasonable speed, or go the way of the Mosquito - get rid of those makeshift gun emplacements and half the people aboard, make it smaller and more streamlined, yet still be capable of carrying a 2,000kg load across a reasonable distance.
The one thing that needs to be realised about the He 111 is that it is quite small and inside there is very little room. The cockpit was cramped and had very little space and visibility out that glass tunnel was not the best, in adverse weather it was terrible, apparently. let's not forget the oddity of the pilot having to raise his seat and stick his head out the top to see where he was going whilst taxying. This was a weird compromise for what was supposed to be a modern bomber. Also, the bomb bay is quite small and the size of bombs carried internally is restricted by the single cellular layout, although big ones could be carried externally, with the drag penalty this added. There is also the matter of the bomb doors, they were rubber and just covered the bomb cells' bottom openings, they didn't seal the bay at all. They opened by a lever and shut by springs, - not too sophisticated.
As SR pointed out, lack of suitable defensive armament is a problem. There just isn't any feasible way to improve this. It was makeshift at best, and an improvement in fitting the H-20 with a top turret helped, but that was about as good as it got, or could get within the space available.
Pilots liked the He 111, it was a hardy machine, had docile characteristics and was pleasant to fly, its peculiarities notwithstanding. it could also withstand quite a beating; it had to, really.
The only way to improve it is to build it bigger or smaller. Make it more sophisticated with more powerful engines, better defensive armament, i.e. turrets and be capable of carrying a bigger bomb load across a greater distance at reasonable speed, or go the way of the Mosquito - get rid of those makeshift gun emplacements and half the people aboard, make it smaller and more streamlined, yet still be capable of carrying a 2,000kg load across a reasonable distance.
Shortround6
Major General
Unfortunately the neglect of the He 111 started during the long run of the H series. It didn't get the DL 131 turret until about year after the DO 217? and the DL 131 turret was a pretty unsophisticated piece of equipment. while it had electric traverse though 360 degrees it must have been a bit crude as the gun was allowed either 18 degrees of hand powered traverse or 18 degrees each side of center (my German even with google translate is none too good). elevation was completely manual. At least the gunner didn't have to change magazines every 5-6 seconds of firing time
The He 111 is most comparable to the Wellington. Except the Wellington did get better engines as time went on and the He 111 was stuck with the Jumo 211 Fs. and it didn't get those until the H-11 version.
The He 111 seemed to get just the barest minimum of improvement to hold it over until the next uber bomber showed up, which they didn't or did in small numbers years late.
Unless you do something like keep the wings, tail and landing gear and change the fuselage entirely big changes are unlikely. But a turret holding a pair of MG 131s with both powered traverse and elevation doesn't seem that unreasonable. The Americans had several different ones going into production in 1941 (or late 1941) mounting bigger guns than the MG 131.
The He 111 is most comparable to the Wellington. Except the Wellington did get better engines as time went on and the He 111 was stuck with the Jumo 211 Fs. and it didn't get those until the H-11 version.
The He 111 seemed to get just the barest minimum of improvement to hold it over until the next uber bomber showed up, which they didn't or did in small numbers years late.
Unless you do something like keep the wings, tail and landing gear and change the fuselage entirely big changes are unlikely. But a turret holding a pair of MG 131s with both powered traverse and elevation doesn't seem that unreasonable. The Americans had several different ones going into production in 1941 (or late 1941) mounting bigger guns than the MG 131.
And this sums it up. The He 111 was to be replaced by Bomber B and the He 177, which on paper looked like it was too good to be true compared to the competition - unfortunately for all concerned, it was!
wuzak
Captain
The best option would be to solve the problems with the He 177.
Which probably means 4 separate engines - perhaps a push-pull arrangement could provide the same power as the coupled DB 606 or 610, without increasing drag too much.
Maybe would required some ground clearance modifications.
Or just go for the 4 engine model.
Wings need to be strengthened and the dive bombing requirements be removed.
Which probably means 4 separate engines - perhaps a push-pull arrangement could provide the same power as the coupled DB 606 or 610, without increasing drag too much.
Maybe would required some ground clearance modifications.
Or just go for the 4 engine model.
Wings need to be strengthened and the dive bombing requirements be removed.
wuzak
Captain
It does to me!
Certainly I think there would be a better chance of getting a useful late war bomber aircraft out of the He 177 than the He 111.
Would have been a darn good bomber.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Quite honestly, the Ju88 could do everything the He111 could do, why not focus on the 88 and turn the 111 out to pasture?
Shortround6
Major General
The He 111 could have been more useful in 1941, 42, and into 43 than the He 177.
There may be some doubts about the JU-88 doing everything the He 111 could do. Like range with the same bomb load. How far could a Ju-88 carry 4400lbs worth of bombs? In 1941/42?
There may be some doubts about the JU-88 doing everything the He 111 could do. Like range with the same bomb load. How far could a Ju-88 carry 4400lbs worth of bombs? In 1941/42?
- Thread starter
- #14
Not just that it could, it was more useful than He 177.
The Ju 88A-4, when powered by Jumo 211J, when carrying 1800 kg (~4000 lbs) bomb was also carrying 1220 kg of fuel (~1800L). The He 111H-16 (Jumo 211F - about 100 Hp less than 211J) was carrying 1790 kg of fuel (~2300L) when carrying 2500 kg (~5500 lbs) bomb, for the range of 1270 km.
If a single, big bomb is carried, the Ju 88A-4 will cruise ~20 km/h faster than He 111H-16, or ~15 km/h faster if the engine is Jumo 211J, but with ~10% better mileage than Ju 88A-4 with Jumo 211J.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
Do you happen to have the source for that? Could you share it please? Been looking exactly for that information.
Is there an example of a German manned turret with a pair of MG/HMG/Cannons? Off the top of my head all of the manned German turrets only had 1. Any reason why this wasn't done?
