A Swastika, 60 Years Submerged, Still Inflames Debate

[RabidAlien]

CV-5 fought to the end to stay afloat, despite everything the IJN could throw at her. Dunno if today's technology would allow her to be refloated from that depth, but if the ship could speak, I think she'd like to breathe again. If nothing else, as a tribute to the men who fought and died (on multiple) ships to keep her afloat.

 

[Oreo]

I don't know if it really matters. I say, bring any ship up if it's fiancially viable to do so, and give the poor sailors' bones a proper burial, just like they do when they find battlefield skeletons. If there is a privately funded group who wishes to do it, regardless the nationality or history of the ship, go for it. Treat the dead with respect-- I think if they had a way of making their wishes known, they would rather have their story told than to simply be forgotten in the murky waters of time. What about ships from WWI? What about the Spanish American War? The Civil War? The Revolution? Are they just sunken tombs as well? No one fussed much when they brought up the Hunley, did they?

 

[Henk]

When that rich @sshole that owns the Titanic museum in New York salved the Titanic I was very pissed. Robert D. Ballard did not claim the wreck because he said it belongs to those who died on it and to no one else and should be left alone, but the Graf Spee is something else. I understand both sides of the argument.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Henk the Titanic still lays on the bottom of the ocean. No one has salvaged here. I dont think they coudl if they tried. It would be crushed as they tried to raise her.

 

[Henk]

Oh sorry mate, my eyes are now bad without me glasses. I meant they cut peaces out of her and took a lot of things from the Titanic wreck.

 

[Lucky13]

Have to agree with you there Henk...

 

[RabidAlien]

Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.

 

[Henk]

Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.

Amen mate.

 

[JugBR]

Once again, a case-by-case basis. IIRC, this guy brought up pieces of the ship, and bought up alot of memorabilia just to make a profit off it. "Hey guys I've got a museum full of Titanic stuff, you'll love it, come pay to look at it!" Putting it on display as a memorial to the ship and those who lost their lives due to Mankind's collosal ego, hopefully so we can learn a lesson from that past mistake...that would be a whole nudder ball of wax. To me, profiting from past catastrophies is about as low as mankind can sink. Raising the past in order to build a memorial to honor those who died, I can understand that, and will support those efforts as much as possible.

amen [2]

 

[HerrKaleut]

This will sound silly to most of you but, speaking as an ex-matelot, ships have souls. Once they have gone...leave them alone. Respect them, dive on them to see them if you must but leave them alone. To me it is the same as digging up bodies and taking bits away. As for entering or taking from a wreck that is a war grave or one where loss of life was incurred,....some people have no sense of decency or propriety and should be shunned as the scumbags that they are.

Sorry to sound off, I just feel strongly about this

 

[fly boy]

Well I think the ship needs to stay at the bottom of the ocean as a grave for the few people that scuttled it.

Imagine what kind of uproar it would recieve if someone wanted to raise the Arizona or the Hood.

If they were to raise it though, it should be returned to the German government.

has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?

 

[Colin1]

has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?

In terms of where it lies it was never lost and yes, it was sunk by the Bismarck

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

has anyone found the hood yet and it was sunk by the bismark yes?

As quoted by an official source:

"The wreck had lain undisturbed for over 60 years until its discovery by David Mearns's team on 19 July 2001. It lies in the Irminger Basin of the Denmark Strait between Iceland and Greenland at a depth of approximately 9,200ft / 2,804m. It is in the "vicinity" of 632200N 0321700W, or roughly 270 miles / 400km west-southwest of Reykjavik, Iceland."

The website also has many pictures taken of the wreck.

H.M.S. Hood Association-Battle Cruiser Hood

 

[BombTaxi]

The Graf Spee should be left alone - she is a war grave, after all. I always find it hard to understand why people view shipwrecks differently from cemeteries. If someone started digging up the US cemeteries in Normandy, or the UK sites on the Somme, there would be an outcry - but poking around the remains of a sunken ship seems to be perfectly OK

I appreciate what some people say about recovering the remains of the crew and giving them burial ashore, but as far as I can tell, it is the tradition that those killed at sea are buried at sea, either seperately with a full funeral, or with their ship if they go down with her. I do not see a good reason to change these traditions at the present time.

I believe I am right in saying that all RN ships lost in action, at least since WWII, are designated war graves and may not be exploited in the way Graf Spee is. Something should be done in legislation to make Graf Spee a protected site - she fought a brave fight, and those who perished aboard her deserve no less than to rest in peace. Vanquished enemies they might have been, but first and foremost they were sailors and fighting men. We expect no less for the dead of HMS Hood...

I'll get off me soapbox now...

 

[Amsel]

Here, Here!

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

I'm kind of torn on this. One hand, yes, the wreck should be left alone to respect the dead. On the other hand, raising a few artifacts as a Memorial would also suffice. I cannot stand people who use the artifacts of a shipwreck to garner a profit, such as whomever brought up that piece of hull of the Titanic, so people could pay to see it. In the end, I think the ship should be left where it is. Not only as a memorial to all those lost in the battle of the River Plate.

 

[syscom3]

I'm kind of torn on this. One hand, yes, the wreck should be left alone to respect the dead. On the other hand, raising a few artifacts as a Memorial would also suffice. I cannot stand people who use the artifacts of a shipwreck to garner a profit, such as whomever brought up that piece of hull of the Titanic, so people could pay to see it. In the end, I think the ship should be left where it is. Not only as a memorial to all those lost in the battle of the River Plate.

I agree.

A few pieces of the ship placed in a museum is fine with me.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree.

A few pieces of the ship placed in a museum is fine with me.

If it were pieces of the Arizona would that be fine with you?

I am very torn on this subject now. Part of me does not believe it should be touched as I look at it as a war grave, but the other part of me realizes that the ship was actually scuttled. So is it a war grave?

 

[BombTaxi]

I think, Adler, that as men died aboard her in combat, she is a war grave. By that logic, I would extend the same status to the many, many wrecked merchantmen littering the floors of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans, victims of the German and US submarine campaigns, and I would also include the carriers and other ships sunk by enemy aerial action. IMHO, the key fact is that tghe ship saew combat and men died serving her country aboard her. That is enough to warrant war grave status in my book.

 

[syscom3]

If it were pieces of the Arizona would that be fine with you?

I am very torn on this subject now. Part of me does not believe it should be touched as I look at it as a war grave, but the other part of me realizes that the ship was actually scuttled. So is it a war grave?

Yes, it would be fine to me. Remember that the ship also was cut up after the raid and many bodies were recovered and buried ashore. I think the Arizona is not a true war grave.

But even so, for those ships that still have the dead on board, some momento's should be removed and placed into museums.

In fact, it should be done whenever possible. A fitting monument for the dead. Once the ship recedes into the memories of history, fewer and fewer people will even know it existed. And that's a tragedy. When people no longer remember the ship and its crew.