Ace on Ace Kills

[Wildcat]

Erbo von kageneck was not shot down, it was injured in combat but manage to return and died from his wounds in a Naples Hopital.

Your quite right Charles, my mistake. In the new Clive caldwell biography it claims that Caldwell was the pilot who inflicted the wounds.

 

[Njaco]

April 29, 1942 - Hptm. Joachim Muncheburg of II./JG 26 shot down a Spitfire near Le Tourquet. His victim was probably the great Polish ace, Major Marian Pisarek, commander of I Polish Fighter Wing.

 

[net_sailor]

Good find Njaco... but now go to the first page of this thread and see post #5

 

[Njaco]

Cheeeezee!!! Se what happens when you're away for awhile. Ummm....I'm just doing a refresher test. You passed!

 

[Wildcat]

Been doing some more reading on Caldwell and it seems he is also credited with shooting down Luftwaffe ace Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert (29 victories?). Caldwell shot him down on 23rd Nov. 1941 whilst flying a Tomohawk. Lippert bailed out but broke both his legs when he hit the ground. He was found by British troops and taken to a hospital in Cairo. Whilst in hospital, Gangrene set in and both legs were amputated, however he died of an embolism moments later.

 

[Watanbe]

Excellent stuff Wildcat. Has he written a biography or autobiography I reckon it would be a fascinating addition to my collection hehe

 

[Heinz]

just off topic here

Wantanbe if you haven't already grab Flak by Michael Vietch top read!

 

[Wildcat]

Excellent stuff Wildcat. Has he written a biography or autobiography I reckon it would be a fascinating addition to my collection hehe

There are two biographies written in recent times about Caldwell. The first is called "Killer Caldwell, Australia's greatest fighter pilot" by Jeffery Watson released in 2005. The second is called "Clive Caldwell, air ace" by Kristen Alexander released last year. I've got both and am reading the Alexander one at the moment. From what I've seen through reviews etc, the Alexander book is the better of the two however I did enjoy the Watson book.

Heinz, I agree. I couldn't put that book down, fantastic read.

 

[Heinz]

Much the same here, i started reading on a Friday night and between homework had it done by Sunday arvo lol!

I intend to read it again soon.

 

[Watanbe]

Thanks guys I will check them out!

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

That turned out to be my last flight in a P-47. My kills for the war were an FW-190 and an Me-109, in addition to the Me-262.

Nice bit of shooting, getting to kill 1 each of the 3 main German fighters. Just missed the Me 163.

 

[T4.H]

I know, that Hartmann shot down several russian aces...

Next time, I have the book on another place.

 

[lesofprimus]

Hauptmann Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert (145 kills)

shot down and killed, on 16 April 1943 Tunisia, Spitfire Ace and Leader of 244 Wing, Wing Commander Ian Gleed (15 kills).....

 

[lesofprimus]

Major Helmut Wick (56 kills)

was shot down and killed, 28 Nov 1940 Isle of Wight, by Flt. Lt. John Dundas (16 Kills) No: 609 Squadron ... Having despatched Major Wick, John Dundas was shot down amd killed by Wick's wing-man Rudolf Flanz.... Both men were lost...

 

[drgondog]

Legend says Ralph Hofer was shot down by Erich Hartmann, but since "The Kidd" went down over Hungary and Jg-52 was flying over Romania at the time, I don't really buy it, though Hofer was in fact the only 8th AAF ace to go down in a2a combat and not to ground fire.

Oops, the 4th FG had at least 5 aces down in air to air that I can think of including Carpenter, Sobanski, McGrattan, Bennett, Edner, Lang plus McPharlin (339) who was a 4th ace flying with 4th on D-Day when he was KIA w/Sobanski and McGrattan - three aces in one flight, and one fight. I could dig up more, perhaps.

Adams and Browning for 357FG come to mind, there are more there also. Mahurin was shot down by Do 217 gunner.

I also don't buy it for the simple overly-coincidental aspect of two young aces both called "The Kid" (well, "Bubi", but its the German equivalent) meeting in the air and fighting to the death. Plus I think the story would have made it into one of Hartmanns autobiographies, not just confined to books on the 4th.

Hofer is still a mystery. Hively last saw him over Budapest in a big fight there, but he went down at an airbase at Molstar, Yugoslavia ~ 200 miles away.

Regards,

Bill

 

[drgondog]

Hi. I am knew to the Forum, but will take the liberty to sugest a topic: How about histories of confirmed cases of kills in aerial combats involving Known aces? I mean, cases in which a US ace shootdown a German ace, for example.

These are difficult to prove but I can offer some examples.

April 19, 1944 - Bob Woody (354FS/355FG) - 7air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Otto Wessling near Eschwege.

April 24, 1944 - Gerald Dix (355FG HQ) 4 air/1.5 ground, or Hank Bille (357FS/355FG) 6 air/4 ground, probably shot down JG3 Franz Schwaiger near Regensburg

April 24, 1944 - Henry Brown (354FS/355FG) 14.2 air/14.5 ground, probably shot down II./JG3 Gruppen Kommander Hermann Frieherr Kapp-herr near Munich. Aces Fortier (5.83 air/5.5 ground) and Woody also scored 109s in same area that Kapp went down.

July 28, 1944 - James McElroy (358FS/355FG) 5 air/6 ground did shoot down JG300 Ernst Erich Hirschfeld near Erfurt

August 16, 1944 - Either John Elder -8air/13 ground, or Bill Cullerton 5air/15 ground, shot down JG3 Ltn Buschmann near Hildescheim.

Dix was a combined air/ground ace. Walter Gresahm, also w/4 air and three ground probably shot down Egon Mayer on 2 March, 1944 SE of Charleroi. I have that combat film.

Regards,

Bill

 

[drgondog]

it does not make sense anyway because of the theater of ops for JG 52, E.H. shot down 15th AF fighters not 8th

Erich this was during the first Shuttle Mission cycle from 21 June June 27. Hofer and several others were forced to abort from mission on 26 June out of Piryatin. He rejoined 4th at Foggia on 30 June and flew out of Foggia on the 2nd of July for his last mission.

Last seen climbing to engae 18-20 Me 109s over Budapest, and wreckage and body near QP-X at airfield at Mostar, Yugoslavia - 200 miles away.

Last speculation was airfield flak

 

[smilefan]

Wikipedia lists USMC's first ace, Marion Carl (18 kills) as the likely victor over well known IJN ace,
Junichi Sasai (27 kills), immortalized in Saburo Sakai's "Samurai!" as his commander at Lea, New Guinea.
Sasai was killed Aug. 26, 1942 over Henderson Field.

IJN ace Keisaku Yoshimura (12 kills) shot down and killed
on Oct 25th, 1942 by Marine Corp ace Joe Foss (26 kills).

On Nov. 11th, 1943 over Rabaul, Navy ace, A.B. "Chick" Smith (10 kills) shot down
a Zero flown by IJN ace, Sekizen Shibayama (13 kills?). Shibayama survived.

On June 9th, 1942 over Lae, New Guinea, USAAF ace Curran "Jack" Jones (5 kills)
shot down and killed IJN ace, Satoshi Yoshino (15 kills).

Oct 21st, 1942, Navy ace Frank Drury (6 kills), shots down and kills
famous IJN ace Toshio Ota (34 kills), who was part of Saburo Sakai's
"Cleanup Crew" at Lea, New Guinea.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Smilefan, please try to combine your posts.

 

[Kongo Otto]

Been doing some more reading on Caldwell and it seems he is also credited with shooting down Luftwaffe ace Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert (29 victories?). Caldwell shot him down on 23rd Nov. 1941 whilst flying a Tomohawk. Lippert bailed out but broke both his legs when he hit the ground. He was found by British troops and taken to a hospital in Cairo. Whilst in hospital, Gangrene set in and both legs were amputated, however he died of an embolism moments later.

At November 1st 1940 Lippert shot down one of RAF's Top Aces Archie McKellar (21 Victories, No. 605 Squadron RAF).

"We were up and we saw a crowd of these and we were way above them and so Archie said "Come on, here we go down", so we went down but we were much too fast, the dive I know why, we went down like 'that' and the 109s saw us and we overshot them on the way down. A quick burst, they turned and were gone; we overshot. Well, once you do that, I mean, you've had it, you go home, but I did anyway. But Archie being what he was, he thought "No, no, I'm going to chase these so and so's" and that's, unfortunately, was the end of Archie. He went on, on his own, didn't look around, chasing this chap and the last thing was, they saw him going straight into a field in Kent. It's a lesson that I suppose you should've learnt; you just don't take too many chances" - Wing Commander Robert W. Foster DFC AE lecturing in Finland, June 2004

Bob Foster in Finland