Addressing SHOOTER on his ridiculous Spitfire claims

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Jabberwocky, Oct 22, 2013.

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  1. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

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    #1 Jabberwocky, Oct 22, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    SHOOTER's ridiculous claims cannot go unaddressed, but I decided not to further mess up the FW-187 thread

    Hardly, otherwise they would have been revealed in the flight tests. The RAE and A&AEE reported the Mk IX had better flying characteristics than the Mk V, due to better harmonised controls. It was also more maneuverable, being roughly equal in turns, superior in climb and dive and with a much greater reserve of power, particularly at altitude.

    Actually, it took a total of two days for the Spitfire IX to demonstrate superiority over the FW-190. No 64 Sqdn claimed 5 FW 190s for no loss on the 30th of July 1942, two whole days after the Mk IX entered combat service.

    The Mk XIV's first combat sorties were 8 January 1944. Its first actual encounter with the enemy was 7 March 1944, when a claim for a probably destroyed was made.

    To determine effectiveness, by your own criteria SHOOTER, we might compare the experience of swapping engines into a combat airframe and the time to score a claim. So the Spitfire XIV goes from the 27 litre Merlin to the 37 litre Griffon, against the P-51 swapping the V-1710 to V-1650.

    The first Merlin powered Mustang, the P-51X first flew on 13th October 1942. The XP-51B first flew in November 1942 and the P-51B in May 1943. The first operational sorties by P-51Bs were in October 1943 and the first kill claim came in December 1943.

    [Begin Edit, with acknowledgement and thanks to Wuzak]

    The first Spitfire XIV prototype, a converted Mk VIII airframe, flew in January 1943. The first production aircraft flew in October 1943. As I noted earlier, its first combat sorties were January 1944. Its first actual encounter with the enemy and claim was in March 1944.

    So, if we look at the time between starting combat sorties and actually claiming, the Mk XIV and the Merlin Mustang are about the same, roughly three months. If we look at prototype test flight to first claim, its roughly 15 months for the Mk XIV and 15 months for the P-51B. If we look at first production aircraft flight to first claim, its 7 months for the P-51B and 6 for the Mk XIV.
    [End Edit]

    Thanks again to wuzak.
     
  2. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean 8 January 1944?


    I think your calcs for the XIV are out by a year. If the Prototype first flew 25 months before the first claim, then it would have been flying in February 1942. I think it more likely that it was February 1943, since the XIV prototype was a converted VIII (known as the VIIIG), and the VIII itself was delayed by the crash program to get the IX into service.
     
  3. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    If this guy really is Neoconshooter (the Germany stuff makes this likely), then he has been banned from at least 3 forums for this sort of posting.

    The style is the same.

    Maybe all we need to do is ask. Neo, is that you?

    Will you be reasonable and stop the repeated postings and stick to facts? Or will you continue to pursue your behavior that has not resulted in good things? Only your future posts will tell.

    The mods KNOW; they are pretty sharp guys. Be nice. Maybe you can stick around. If we must argue ... discuss, we must be polite about it ...
     
  4. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    #4 DerAdlerIstGelandet, Oct 23, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    Keep it civil.

    And yes we are aware of Shooter and who he is. Just like the the real aviation world is small, so is the online aviation world.

    And yes, Shooter's (neo if you prefer) absurd claims that the Spit was easier to shoot down than its comparative aircraft, and that it was not effective are rediculous. Especially since his sources are always Wiki and Youtube Guncam footage (as if there are no guncam footage of P-51's, 190's and 109's being shot down).
     
  5. Aozora

    Aozora Well-Known Member

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    #5 Aozora, Oct 23, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    The Spitfire XIV handled so poorly, and its controls were so heavy and it yawed so badly it was useless...yeah right! Er, could we please see those numerous pilot's complaints?

    Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K

    If the Spitfire XIV was so useless and hard to handle during combat, I shudder to think what the 109s and 190s must have been like to handle.

    I don't currently have my copy of Spitfire The History, but suspect that most of the section eluded to by (Neocon)Shooter deals with the Spitfire XXI (or 21) which was, initially, the only version of the Spitfire that did have some truly bad handling characteristics - these issues were resolved with modifications to the horizontal tail and elevators
     
  6. Jabberwocky

    Jabberwocky Active Member

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    Whoops, yes. Fat fingers and a bit of a rush.

    Thank you wuzak.
     
  7. OldSkeptic

    OldSkeptic Active Member

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    Oh, know Shooter for way back. Still banging on about the Spit, why he can't accept it was a very good plane, as were quite a few others.
    He's been doing this for years (decades?) now. Ah living proof of my First Law of Humanity:

    (1) Never underestimate human stupidity.
     
  8. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I was going to reply to Shooter with "Don't talk utter b*ll*cks!", but that would be impolite, and we don't want that, do we?
     
  9. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Last time, keep it civil!

    I will shut down the thread, and people will be removed. You all know the rules. You don't need to call someone stupid to have a debate.
     
  10. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    While I disagree with Shooter, IMHO it is true that Supermarine had to struggle to keep Spitfire truly combative during the WWII, that wasn't a surprise because technical development was so fast during 40s but still the all major wartime production versions of Spit were stopgap solutions (Mk V, IX and XIV) while the planned improved versions (III, VII/VIII and 21) were pushed aside, more or less missed the war or were built in significantly lower numbers than their stop-gap sisters. Mk IXs and XIVs showed that "shotgun marriages" can be very successful as did Fw 190D in Germany and Ki-100 in Japan but things didn't went accordingly the planned development cycle.

    Juha
     
  11. pattle

    pattle Member

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    I don't mind other people having opinions, I rate the Spitfire very highly but if someone wants to believe the Spitfire was rubbish then I am not going to get angry about that, the Spitfire was after all a machine and not a person or persons so this can not be considered slander. I have noticed on this forum that things can get very bitter between people as they argue over whose source of information is the most reliable, speaking for myself I will not accept being blamed for what I have read but if someone has some information or ideas on a subject then I welcome it as this is what makes a discussion interesting. What I do object to is the sheer volume of posts and the feeling of repetition as we go round and round back over old ground, this sort of thing serves no good purpose and amounts to an individual forcing an unwelcome opinion on others, for me this is aggressive spam and I won't even read it.
     
  12. pattle

    pattle Member

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    I mostly agree, but wasn't it often the way back then where answers to problems were found almost by accident or at best by compromise, look at the Mustang and Lancaster for example.
     
  13. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    The III didn't go forward because the 20-series Merlins were required to keep the Hurricane remotely competitive and the V was a quicker path to higher performance.

    The VIII did see the war, but not inhuge numbers, and not in the ETO.

    The 21 arrived just before the end of the war.

    The plan was waylaid by wartime necessity. Supermarines were busy building these stop-gaps and that delayed the definitive versions.

    But as stop-gaps go, the XIV was pretty awesome. And the IX wasn't bad either.
     
  14. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Master of the understatement there, Wuzak!

    The thing is, there's no need to make too much of this. Just treat him like we do any one else who makes ridiculous claims. Tell him he's wrong and produce credible evidence to prove it. If he continues, keep doing it back. No need to get nasty.
     
  15. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

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    Shooter has been banned for trolling on numerous boards and now he is trolling with the same stuff on this board. Best to just ignore his gibberish nonsense as much as possible.
     
  16. nuuumannn

    nuuumannn Well-Known Member

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    Although I understand the logic behind doing this, Milosh, on a public forum like this one, it's best to correct him and set the story straight, rather than allow ludicrous posts to go unanswered. Being a public forum, people will pick up anything written here and run with it.
     
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  17. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    And if this thread doesn't stay on topic of counter-point to Shooter's claims and instead becomes a bashing, it will be closed.
     
  18. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #18 drgondog, Oct 23, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
    Based on past experience Gaston and Shooter are best ignored when either pops up with the bold claim of the day.. just my POV.

    No point in wasting energy - If you must 'counter the argument' try "That is very interesting" instead?
     
  19. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    This is like walking into the Twilight Zone.
     
  20. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    You guys do realise that this thread is exactly what shooter wants and you are feeding his ego. I find the best is to ignore him, he soon gets bored if no one responds to his whackier writings and wanders off. Dont wrestle a pig you get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
     
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