swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,022
- Jun 25, 2013
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There was a lot of exaggeration, possibly most from the USAAC/USAAF, about how accurate high-altitude bombing could be.
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Companies trying to sell things tend to be enthusiastic. I have some sympathy with the USA military and manufacturers on this. The theoretical question of hitting a target from a high altitude is different from hitting targets in Europe and Japan which have huge and unknown (in USA) wind speeds at those altitudes.Every single air force with a bomber was guilty of that exaggeration.
Companies trying to sell things tend to be enthusiastic. I have some sympathy with the USA military and manufacturers on this. The theoretical question of hitting a target from a high altitude is different from hitting targets in Europe and Japan which have huge and unknown (in USA) wind speeds at those altitudes.
Well they would wouldnt they? No one would say "no chance of hitting anything there on five days out of six"The problem for the USAAF was that they tested the Norden bomb sight in unrealistic conditions. That is, at altitudes below what would actually be used (around 10,000ft rather than 20,000-30,000ft), in clear desert skies and with no simulated opposition, either from fighters or flak.
Then they took these results and used them to claim the incredible accuracy the Norden allowed, talking up the "pickle barrel" accuracy. And their propagandists ran with it.
I'm curious if the bombsight technology we developed influenced the fire control system on interceptors? I ask because some of the interceptors we used were automated up the wazoo to levels that were often unnecessary.
As a comparison
Norden Bombsite
- With airspeed, heading, and altitude....................................Breakway
I think the USAAF had units of comparable skill, but that kind of accuracy could not be realized in anything other than small unit raids. As an aside, at least one of the bombs dropped on the Tirpitz went through the ship and detonated underneath.
Companies trying to sell things tend to be enthusiastic.
A war game referee deciding if a practice bomb is close enough to destroy something is also different than a target's destruction being decided by laws of physics.
I am not overly impressed with SABS II or the supposed unique accuracy of 617 squadron in bombing the stationary and moored Tirpitz (Operation Catechism 12 December 1944).
You can't make any meaningful comment on the accuracy of any sight based on one raid. Of the aircraft attacking, eighteen were equipped with the SABS and twelve with the Mk XIV sight and nobody knows whose bombs went where (see Bomber Command's ORS Report S.218). It is, in the context of a discussion of the accuracy of SABS, almost completely irrelevant. In any case three bombs struck Tirpitz and at least another seven (maybe ten, depending who you believe) landed within the torpedo nets, three very close to the ship, which is remarkably accurate bombing. Six of twenty nine bombs dropped either hit or landed close enough to severely damage the target. Whether a specially trained Norden equipped unit of US bombers in Europe could have come close to this is a moot point as it couldn't have carried a tallboy to make the attempt. The Americans had earlier declined to make the Norden sight available to the British.
The facts are that the SABS, of which less than 1,000 were ever made, in the hands of No. 617 Squadron, achieved an average radial error of 125 yards in all assessed operations between January and March 1945. Given that many of these raids were with special ordnance almost all were assessed.
The Mk XIV bomb sight, used by two other specially trained 'precision' squadrons achieved an error of 195 yards in the same period. The SABS was statistically and in reality a more accurate sight. The above figures were rarely achieved by US bombers equipped with Norden sights, which might explain why British interest in it quickly waned and it was rejected when finally offered late in the war.
ALL US bombers were supposed to be precision bombing, at least as far as the public back home was concerned, yet their results were often worse than those achieved by the RAF's area raids at night. In the last quarter of 1944, for bombs dropped by the USAAF in Europe under conditions of good visibility (as the RAF enjoyed for 'Catechism' ) the figures show that B-17s dropped 13.1% and B-24s a mere 8.8% within 500 feet/ 166 yards of the aiming point with the Norden sight.
The main draw back of the SABs when compared with the Mk XIV (though not the Norden) was the tactical limitations imposed by a long, straight and level bomb run. The Mk XIV required a ten second run and could be used in a climb or glide, allowing a greater degree of tactical freedom, though Bomber Command still attempted to limit evasive manoeuvres. The SABS was also complicated and difficult to manufacture and required skilled maintenance, certainly when compared with the Mk XIV.
Cheers
Steve
I don't believe the SABS was superior to the Norden. In accuracy The Norden could have a supplementary device added that alllowed bombing during the climb or dive.
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Nor do I, but the much vaunted Norden was no better which explains why the RAF rejected it when it was finally offered. The Mk XIV was considered to be the equal of the Norden by the RAF boffins, though I am unaware of any British comparative testing of the Norden and Mk XIV.
The RAF's 'precision' squadrons achieved better accuracy with the SABS and MK XIV than the USAAF achieved with the Norden. Of course those RAF squadrons were trained for precision bombing, but then so, theoretically, were all those USAAF bombardiers. Time and time again the reinforcement and repetition of the US doctrine of 'precision bombing' appears in all sorts of documents, and some officers ended up jumping through some very odd hoops to reconcile this with the bombing accuracy actually achieved, even in good visual conditions.
When Bomber Command looked at data for 57 late 1944 night raids against 'lightly defended' targets (like French marshalling yards, easily within Oboe range), it found the mean overall systematic error to be 300 yards and the mean random error to be 385 yards. The Mk XIV bomb sight was investigated as a possible source of error, but it was concluded that the device should give an accuracy of "about 130 yards" at 10,000 feet, that is only about 30% of the random error. The same report added that the SABS had an operational error of 120 yards at 10,000 feet (another report says 125 yards) and 170 yards at 16,000 feet.
For 'heavily defended' targets, a sample of six were analysed, all in Germany, the two errors rose to 1080 yards (systematic) and 1460 yards (overall average). The scientists felt the errors were weighted by the relative inaccuracy of the H2S marking used on one of the six raids. Clearly the error caused by the accuracy of the bomb sight used was a small percentage of the overall errors. Tactics and bombing techniques had a far larger impact on the accuracy of bombing than any error in the bomb sights used. The most critical factor in bombing accuracy was always the weather.
Cheers
Steve
I suspect there was very little difference between the SABS 2, Norden or Lofte 7 in terms of instrument error.
I was talking about the philosophy of use of automation, not the technology being exactly the sameThey were about 10 years apart in timing.
And when you are talking about stopping nuclear armed bombers just how much "aid/help" to the pilots in ALL WEATHER conditions is too much or unnecessary?
Was SABS II better able to calculate the ballistics of bombs at supersonic speeds? I remember being told we had trouble calculating ballistics for bombs dropping at supersonic speeds?I am not overly impressed with SABS II or the supposed unique accuracy of 617 squadron in bombing the stationary and moored Tirpitz (Operation Catechism 12 December 1944).
I have no idea to be honest.Some of of the USAAF bridge busting raids using B-26 would have been equally impressive and certainly more important than sinking a crippled stationary battleship in Norway while Germany was surrounded on all sides.
Could we do this too?Neither sight had Ballistic data for the bomb. The bombardier used tables and dialled in bomb fall time, bomb trail error (compared to a bomb dropped in vacuum) and air speed.
Some bombardiers could be really accurate and hit the target with 80-85% of precision..