After the BoB: rationalization of German/Axis aero engine development & production?

[tomo pauk]

German engine development, at least to me, come out as sometimes extravagant - too many projects fighting for resources (both material and manpower) while the run-on-the-mill types were slowly but surely becoming second or 3rd best when compared with what the WAllies were throwing at Axis forces.
So: the Battle of Britain has just toned down by late September of 1940. It is time to rationalize the aero engines programs. As less of the overlapping as possible, with emphasis to improvement both of 'altitude' power an take-off power levels. Better reliability is also a requirement. Kill the diesel engine program at Junkers for all I care.
What about jet engines, that are already in the test cells?

 

[Shortround6]

Japanese were just as extravagant with projects, especially considering their industrial base.

A discreet veil shall be pulled across the Italian aero engine industry as far as multiplicity of projects.

The US had a number of "duds" but the American Industrial base could absorb them and churn out large numbers of good engines even if not outstanding (thinking of Wright here.)

 

[cherry blossom]

The problem with discussing this is that we have to decide how much hindsight to use. There is a school of thought that holds that in 1940 Hitler believed that Germany would face a huge Anglo-American air war by 1944 (a source for this is Adam Tooze's "Wages of Destruction", especially chapter 12 which references "Hitlers Strategie: Politik und Kriegsführung, 1940–1941" by Andreas Hillgruber). However, other sources suggest that the NAZI leaders severely underestimated America's potential. If we expect to have to meet the actual Anglo-American strength of 1944, a huge qualitative superiority is necessary. The development of jet engines is thus the only way that Germany can hope to survive 1944. As these do not need high octane fuels, that choice also brings a huge economic advantage.

 

[tomo pauk]

The problem with discussing this is that we have to decide how much hindsight to use.

We can recall that Hitler ordered preparations for the war against the Soviet Union in late 1940. Luftwaffe will thus need to cater for two fronts from 1941, against two peer opponents, and they know it by start of 1941. Rationalization is bound to happen, earlier rather than later.

Japanese were just as extravagant with projects, especially considering their industrial base.
A discreet veil shall be pulled across the Italian aero engine industry as far as multiplicity of projects.
The US had a number of "duds" but the American Industrial base could absorb them and churn out large numbers of good engines even if not outstanding (thinking of Wright here.)

I'm open to the suggestions about the Axis (Japan, Italy) development post-BoB

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

After the BoB was lost by the Germans, airpower would still have to play a significant role in subduing the UK. And while the Eastern Front would always be primarily a land war, air support there would be vital.

It stands to reason that rationalizing the production of effective current aircraft, and focusing R&D on those designs which showed the most promise for better performance and timely production, should have been undertaken.

There's also the "we're still going to build home appliances in wartime" thing used to keep the population of Germany docile and pliant.

 

[tomo pauk]

Let's try with Jumo 1st:
- diesel aero engines go to the backburner, if not cancelled all together
- Jumo 222 cancelled
- more development to the Jumo 211 (historically it went from very good engine of 1939/40 to mediocree for 1943/44)*
- a big or/and heavy V12 as a next-gen engine (whether along the lines of the historical 213, or something at ~45L)

*bigger/better S/C, introduction of swirl throttle, perhaps 2800 rpm ability, etc

 

[tonycat77]

Get french radials to be built in massive numbers for auxiliary/transport aircraft
Axe the ju-87 as soon as possible, switch to a heavily armored fw-190 for ground support by 1942
Get turbo-chargers or 3 speed sc for fw-190C or D
He-280 to be put in production or put a jet engine in the me-163
No bomber B, get the Do-335 instead
No me-210, get the fw-187 instead, put a radar on it asap
Give everyone and their mother free licenses for building bf-109s and fw-190s, bmw-801s, gnome radials etc

 

[tomo pauk]

BMW:
- 801 as the only piston engine: no 802 project, no 803 pie-in-the-sky; apart from the details needed for the 801 to work reliably, it will need a more refined supercharger by late 1942 (like it was on the 801E, that was no produced), or preferably a 2-stage S/C by spring of 1943 (like on the BMW's P 8028 project engine); a turboed 801 is surely tempting with hollow-bladed turbine driving the compressor as it was used on the Ju 388 that actually flew in early 1944

Jet engine program - that involved Heinkel-Hirth, BMW and Junkers needs a rationalization, too. It is very tempting to leave just H-H to do developement, with them and also other companies manufacturing the engines?

 

[wiking85]

German engine development, at least to me, come out as sometimes extravagant - too many projects fighting for resources (both material and manpower) while the run-on-the-mill types were slowly but surely becoming second or 3rd best when compared with what the WAllies were throwing at Axis forces.
So: the Battle of Britain has just toned down by late September of 1940. It is time to rationalize the aero engines programs. As less of the overlapping as possible, with emphasis to improvement both of 'altitude' power an take-off power levels. Better reliability is also a requirement. Kill the diesel engine program at Junkers for all I care.
What about jet engines, that are already in the test cells?

Haven't we done a billion of these types of threads?
I'd say no engines over 24 cylinders, kill the Daimler Benz 604 and focus on the Jumo 222, don't keep upgrading the HP of the 222 until it is able to be considered operational, and focus DB on the 601/5 and 603 only. Jumo can do the 222 and 211/213 upgrade. BMW should just focus on the BMW 801 only. Since those were the principle piston aero engines Germany had in the war that should a pretty big rationalization.

As to the jet engines and earlier pruning so they had only two types per category of size/power would help.

 

[mikemike]

Let's try with Jumo 1st:
- more development to the Jumo 211 (historically it went from very good engine of 1939/40 to mediocree for 1943/44)*
- a big or/and heavy V12 as a next-gen engine (whether along the lines of the historical 213, or something at ~45L)

*bigger/better S/C, introduction of swirl throttle, perhaps 2800 rpm ability, etc

Interesting. You do not seem to know that the Jumo 213 was the upgraded 211 - same engine and cylinder dimensions, but a lot of refinements, like far higher RPM, swirl throttle etc.
In the end, there was even a variant with a four-valve cylinder head. As to the Jumo 222, that could have been in series production much earlier if not for RLM vacillation and if permission to use tin in the bearing liners had been given earlier. As it was, the factory already purpose-built for the 222 was converted laboriously for DB 603-production; not many 603s came out of it.

 

[mikemike]

I have another far-out what-if proposal: have BRAMO get a production license for the Mitsubishi Kinsei and Kasei engines in 1936/37. The Kasei was about the same size and weight as the BMW 801, not as powerful, and not with fuel injection. The Luftwaffe might actually had some variant of the 190, the development of which was much-delayed by engine troubles, ready for the Battle of Britain if Focke-Wulf had had the Kasei to use. True, the Kasei was not as technologically sexy as the 801, but it worked.

 

[tomo pauk]

Haven't we done a billion of these types of threads?
I'd say no engines over 24 cylinders, kill the Daimler Benz 604 and focus on the Jumo 222, don't keep upgrading the HP of the 222 until it is able to be considered operational, and focus DB on the 601/5 and 603 only. Jumo can do the 222 and 211/213 upgrade. BMW should just focus on the BMW 801 only. Since those were the principle piston aero engines Germany had in the war that should a pretty big rationalization.

Germany spending more time and resources on the Jumo 222 will give them a big, fat 'thank you' from the Allies.
BTW - I was under impression that yo don't mind what-if scenarios.

As to the jet engines and earlier pruning so they had only two types per category of size/power would help.

Works for me.

Interesting. You do not seem to know that the Jumo 213 was the upgraded 211 - same engine and cylinder dimensions, but a lot of refinements, like far higher RPM, swirl throttle etc.

Nope - Jumo 213 was a whole new engine. New crankcase, crankshaft, head, ancillaries (including the cooling and lubricating system), reduction gear, pistons & piston pins, supercharger & it's drive... It weighted 950-1000 kg, vs. ~700 kg for the mid-war 211s.

In the end, there was even a variant with a four-valve cylinder head. As to the Jumo 222, that could have been in series production much earlier if not for RLM vacillation and if permission to use tin in the bearing liners had been given earlier. As it was, the factory already purpose-built for the 222 was converted laboriously for DB 603-production; not many 603s came out of it.

Jumo 222 was a combination of dumpster fire and train-wreck - corrosing problems, breakage of piston pins, supercharger damages...

 

[wiking85]

I have another far-out what-if proposal: have BRAMO get a production license for the Mitsubishi Kinsei and Kasei engines in 1936/37. The Kasei was about the same size and weight as the BMW 801, not as powerful, and not with fuel injection. The Luftwaffe might actually had some variant of the 190, the development of which was much-delayed by engine troubles, ready for the Battle of Britain if Focke-Wulf had had the Kasei to use. True, the Kasei was not as technologically sexy as the 801, but it worked.

The Kasei engine only ran for the first time in 1938, same as the BMW801. It was no earlier, so wasn't really an option for a pre-BoB engine. The Kinsei was worse than the DB601 of the time, so no gain there; in fact the Japanese ended up licensing the DB601, though they ran into problems with the crankshaft given their lower level of development in metallurgy.

 

[wiking85]

Germany spending more time and resources on the Jumo 222 will give them a big, fat 'thank you' from the Allies.
BTW - I was under impression that yo don't mind what-if scenarios.



Works for me.



Nope - Jumo 213 was a whole new engine. New crankcase, crankshaft, head, ancillaries (including the cooling and lubricating system), reduction gear, pistons & piston pins, supercharger & it's drive... It weighted 950-1000 kg, vs. ~700 kg for the mid-war 211s.



Jumo 222 was a combination of dumpster fire and train-wreck - corrosing problems, breakage of piston pins, supercharger damages...

The Jumo 222 worked just fine in the end. The problem with had it's HP spec constantly upgraded by Milch from 1941 on, which prevented it from ever being ready, since as soon as they got close to meeting the latest demand it was upped again. Hence all the repeated issues you mention; they were normal teething problems, but it was never just fixed in performance requirements By 1945 the E/F version worked well from what I could find. Apparently the US got a copy and tested it without issue, but by then they were more interested in jet engines than 24 cylinder liquid cooled designs.

Oh I'm down for what ifs, I just thought we've done this topic repeatedly and there wasn't that much new to say on the subject. But here I am replying

The 213 was an upgraded 211. You're right that the extra power and RPMs required upgraded/new all of the above, but it was the same core design just with increased RPM and redesigned components after the Jumo 211 design was maxed out in power output with its existing components.

There's also the "we're still going to build home appliances in wartime" thing used to keep the population of Germany docile and pliant.

I'm pretty sure that is a myth. Tooze demonstrates that even pre-war they were effectively mobilized already in terms of percentage of the economy dedicated to rearmament. A lot of things listed as 'civilian production' were actually intended for the army, potentially as a way to hide military spending.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Jumo 222 worked just fine in the end. The problem with had it's HP spec constantly upgraded by Milch from 1941 on, which prevented it from ever being ready, since as soon as they got close to meeting the latest demand it was upped again. Hence all the repeated issues you mention; they were normal teething problems, but it was never just fixed in performance requirements By 1945 the E/F version worked well from what I could find. Apparently the US got a copy and tested it without issue, but by then they were more interested in jet engines than 24 cylinder liquid cooled designs.

Corrosion, impellers disintegrating and warped/broken crankpins are not the 'normal teething problems'. I can just recommend Calum's book to see how the engine had big problems with host of core items.
Luftwaffe has better chances to see working jet engines in 1943 than a working Jumo 222 in any year, and they are better off with a jet engine than with Jumo 222.

The 213 was an upgraded 211. You're right that the extra power and RPMs required upgraded/new all of the above, but it was the same core design just with increased RPM and redesigned components after the Jumo 211 design was maxed out in power output with its existing components.

One does not just get extra power and just increase RPM - see any engine that went for extra 100 RPM, let alone 200 rpm extra. Jumo 213 turned 3250 rpm vs. Jumo 211's 2600 (obvious 650 rpm extra) because it was a new engine, with new and much stronger & heavier internals. All of them. Just like Griffon or the 'R' engine were not just an upgraded Buzzard.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm pretty sure that is a myth. Tooze demonstrates that even pre-war they were effectively mobilized already in terms of percentage of the economy dedicated to rearmament. A lot of things listed as 'civilian production' were actually intended for the army, potentially as a way to hide military spending.

Bomber Command's War Against Germany,, based on official RAF sources, argues that reduction in nonmilitary items was a factor in the productivity rise of 1944.

 

[wuzak]

No me-210, get the fw-187 instead, put a radar on it asap

How are you going to get a radar in an Fw 187? How are you going to get the required screens?

 

[wuzak]

I have another far-out what-if proposal: have BRAMO get a production license for the Mitsubishi Kinsei and Kasei engines in 1936/37. The Kasei was about the same size and weight as the BMW 801, not as powerful, and not with fuel injection. The Luftwaffe might actually had some variant of the 190, the development of which was much-delayed by engine troubles, ready for the Battle of Britain if Focke-Wulf had had the Kasei to use. True, the Kasei was not as technologically sexy as the 801, but it worked.

Bramo developed the 323 from the Bristol Jupiter.

BMW licence built the Pratt & Whitney Hornet, from which the Mitsubishi Kinsei was also developed.

BMW developed the licence built Hornet into the two row 139.

The 801 was developed from both the Bramo 323 and the BMW 139.

Not sure how using a Japanese development of the Hornet would improve the situation with the Hornet development BMW 139, and its successor, the BMW 801.

 

[Shortround6]

How are you going to get a radar in an Fw 187? How are you going to get the required screens?

It is the famous rubber fw 187. It stretches in any direction to accommodate the needed fuel, armament or equipment needed for any role, all at no penalty to performance.

Nothing that a whole new forward fuselage/cockpit area can't solve but that does tend to lower the performance.

 

[wuzak]

It is the famous rubber fw 187. It stretches in any direction to accommodate the needed fuel, armament or equipment needed for any role, all at no penalty to performance.

Nothing that a whole new forward fuselage/cockpit area can't solve but that does tend to lower the performance.

And a nice step down in section between the new forward fuselage and the old rear?