SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Thanks for that. It's eye opening to read the ever increasing number of carriers being laid down as the war progressed.
Aircraft Carrier and Aircraft Limits
- Thread starter Zipper730
- Start date
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Admiral Beez
Major
Several Japanese carriers often had three lifts, but deck edge lifts aside, this was rare on other navies' carriers. Only HMS Ark Royal (91) and Graf Zeppelin come to mind.
I wonder if the IJN CAG could be increased by omitting the middle lift. They'd have to address their scribbly hangar layouts first, as I'm not sure a non-folding aircraft could move inside the hangar.
Interestingly, the Italians omitted the aft lift on their carrier Aquila, making for fast recoveries, but slow spotting for takeoffs.
One lift I find very interesting is HMS Hermes (95), where the aft lift is not inside the hangar, but is exposed the the elements, on a very low aft freeboard. Here's Hermes at her launch, before the aft lift and flight deck has been fitted.
Here's Hermes completed, notice the low freeboard and how the aft lift is exposed to the elements on three sides. Imagine the weather and following seas roaring into the hangar bay whenever the aft doors are opened. It's no wonder Hermes was sent to gentler climes.
The Modelling News: Build guide: Paul takes on Flyhawk's 1/700th scale HMS Hermes
Though I do admire the attempt to maximize the hangar space by keeping the lift outside of it. Sort of like the Spanish aircraft carrier Príncipe de Asturias' aft lift. Where Hermes CAG size is let down the most is the lack of hangar space past the forward lift. I understand she was a pioneer ship, the first laid down as a carrier, but why didn't her designers think a carrier should start off with a rectangular box from stem to stem, and then build around that?
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
XBe02Drvr or jetcal1 would know better than I, but the "super carriers" didn't have through deck elevators. Elevators were a weak point so they were moved to the sides. Moving the rear lift to deck edge might have been a good idea. I don't think the IJN was planning a transit of the Panama Canal.
Admiral Beez
Major
True that. With the exception of March/April 1942's raid on Ceylon, I don't think a Japanese carrier ever left the Pacific Ocean.
The Izumo-class can try it today, shown below along with USS Ronald Reagan (CVN 76). At 814 ft long and 38ft wide, the Izumo-class are small relative to the IJN carriers that would have transited either the Suez or Panama canals.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Akagi and Kaga originally had three flight decks, the lower and middle flight decks leading directly to the hangars on that level.
The main flight deck had two elevators, the fore lift serviced the hangar below, but the aft elevator accessed all hangars.
During their refit in the mid-30's, the multiple decks were eliminated.
The main flight deck had two elevators, the fore lift serviced the hangar below, but the aft elevator accessed all hangars.
During their refit in the mid-30's, the multiple decks were eliminated.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I knew about the 3 flight deck layout but I didn't know about the elevator arrangements. Seems kind of complicated.
Admiral Beez
Major
It's amazing to me that when someone was thinking up this rats nest of a layout that someone else at IJN design didn't say, hey, why don't we just angle the flight deck to clear the bows for faster rotations?
cherry blossom
Senior Airman
- 516
- Apr 23, 2007
Nice pictures but you are mixing the correct length in feet with a beam of 38 metres, about the same as Yamato!
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I must have missed this post. I have wondered for decades what that thing on the flight deck was in that photo.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The idea of the IJN's triple deck, was to launch and recover aircraft at the same time with the middle deck used for lightweight aircraft such as liaison and reconnaissance.
By the mid-30's, aircraft had become heavier and needed a longer run, so the lower deck (devoted to launching) was becoming obsolete - now if they had installed catapults on that dedicated deck, then perhaps it would have remained useful, but the mid-deck was pretty much useless.
With that in mind, it the Akagi and Kaga had retained at least the two decks, the Battle of Midway may have taken and ugly turn for the USN, as the lower deck would have been clear for launching additional CAP/strikes while the upper deck remained clear for recovering the returning strike force from Midway.
By the mid-30's, aircraft had become heavier and needed a longer run, so the lower deck (devoted to launching) was becoming obsolete - now if they had installed catapults on that dedicated deck, then perhaps it would have remained useful, but the mid-deck was pretty much useless.
With that in mind, it the Akagi and Kaga had retained at least the two decks, the Battle of Midway may have taken and ugly turn for the USN, as the lower deck would have been clear for launching additional CAP/strikes while the upper deck remained clear for recovering the returning strike force from Midway.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Possibly, but Hiryu and Soryu did not have that capability so I'm not sure IJN doctrine would have allowed that flexibility. KdB had trained and fought with the idea that all carriers launch and strike as one, the "secret" to their early success in overwhelming their opponents.
However, as you point out, with two ships able to multi-task, perhaps IJN doctrine would have developed slightly different to allow for the above scenario. An interesting "what if" you've posed.
Admiral Beez
Major
Beyond a preemptive strike on a peacetime USA, the IJN had no early success. Coral Sea was a draw, at best, and the Ceylon Raid mostly a fail, sinking an old, undefended carrier and couple of cruisers. The KdB's ultimate test would be at Midway, where they failed. They never overwhelmed any opponents.
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Whilst I agree with most of what you say, I was referring more to Pearl Harbor, Wake Island, Rabaul, Darwin, Colombo et. al.
Prince of Wales & Repulse as well.
Only two carriers were present at Coral Sea, not KdB in its entirety but yes, a draw. Had five or six been there I doubt very much it would have been the same outcome.
Had Sommerville not played the cagey cat and mouse game he (wisely) did in the Indian Ocean, things could have gotten pretty messy for the British Eastern Fleet as well.
As for the couple of cruisers, that was some of the most accurate and impressive dive bombing of the entire war.
Admiral Beez
Major
I agree with your post, but Force Z was taken out by land based IJN strike aircraft, not the KdB.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Combined Ops?
Admiral Beez
Major
I don't think so, as the torpedo strike had no fighter escort. That's the sad part, per Bloody Shambles, had Phillips informed the RAF where he was and where he was going, the Buffaloes would have torn apart the unarmoured and matchstick bombers.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It is true that Nagumo would follow the doctrine of "en masse" - but some carrier's decks/hangars were cluttered with aircraft being rearmed and refueled when the SBDs arrived.Possibly, but Hiryu and Soryu did not have that capability so I'm not sure IJN doctrine would have allowed that flexibility. KdB had trained and fought with the idea that all carriers launch and strike as one, the "secret" to their early success in overwhelming their opponents.
However, as you point out, with two ships able to multi-task, perhaps IJN doctrine would have developed slightly different to allow for the above scenario. An interesting "what if" you've posed.
Nagumo had a reserve of A6Ms but they could not be launched because of the recovery and rearming operations.
The dual deck setup would have allowed Nagumo to launch his reserve fighters and you can see in several photos taken by attacking SBDs, one of the carriers managed to get fighters up topside and was in the process of launching it's A6Ms when the SBDs struck.
Admiral Beez
Major
Nagumo was lucky too. For whatever reason he opted to not put up a CAP whilst sailing around waiting for his scouts to report in. A strike from Ceylon could have got through, and we know that IJN carriers need only a single bomb to crack into a fireball.
Put me in charge, and with the intel Britain had Nagumo is toast, lol. Set a Ceylon trap for Nagumo, March 1942
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
See if you could score some Martlets. Just saying.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Okay this might be out of place. A new U.S.S. Enterprise is being built. Am I the only one who wants to see the next two named Yorktown and Hornet?
