Aircraft Economics the forgotten consideration

[z42]

The Tiger was never supposed to be a general issue tank.
A better comparison but still very flawed would be the Tiger vs M6 or Tiger vs M-26.

And economics of production has lot to do with initial orders or production schedule. The Germany army only asked for (paid for) a delivery rate of 25 tanks per month. Took a while for that to be changed. If they had asked for 75 per month and tooled up (and hired manpower) accordingly the price would have come down, at least a little

IIRC I read somewhere that for the Tiger I production, on average for every sixth vehicle produced they made some tweak. Slowing down the production rate and making maintenance a nightmare.

The Tiger was intended for breaking through fortified positions. Not even for exploiting the break through, that would be done by the MK IIIs and MK IVs.

The Germans built over 5500 MK IVs from Aug 1943 to the end of the war, they stopped making Tiger Is in Aug 1944.

The Whole Tiger vs Sherman thing is a distraction from what was going on and is a real mix up of the quality over quantity thing.

Even if you include total Pz IV production (8500), Pz III production (5800), Panther (6000), the Germans were hopelessly outnumbered by Sherman (50k) and T-34 (84k) production (+ other Allied tanks).

 

[gruad]

What exactly is "at that point of the war."?

Apologies it's not clear what I said.

The videos of P47s I watched were very late war after the Rhine was crossed, where they were clearing the way ahead of allied ground forces.

Despite being near to the end of the war, there was some very nasty fighting going on with it seems the radar guided AA taking more of a toll than the Luftwaffe.

 

[MIflyer]

They gave good service up and down the east coast and Caribbean looking for U-boats,

But unfortunately they could not do much if they found one, except announce it over the radio. I don't recall seeing any shown carrying bombs or depth charges. A friend of mine owned a Fairchild 24R that flew with the CAP in WWII and actually got a U-boat; they carried bombs. I think they damaged the sub and it ran aground, after which the USN came out and got it. When the USAF Museum found out he had that airplane they insisted they had to have it, and since he was having some trouble with the engine he agreed to donate it to them.

I was out at Chino many years ago They had a very nice looking restored O-47.

 

[yosimitesam]

The Soviet saying comes to mind: quantity has a quality all its own.

They also had another "common saying": In war, never let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good enough."

 

[pbehn]

They also had another "common saying": In war, never let the "perfect" become the enemy of the "good enough."

The Chain Home radar system was made from parts and systems known to be of a third level of quality/ technology. This was because it had to be produced and to be reliable immediately and operated and maintained by technicians.

 

[MIflyer]

The Chain Home radar system was made from parts and systems known to be of a third level of quality/ technology

They used airmen peddling bicycles to steer the antenna. Stopping, starting again, and reversing was done by using a doorbell to signal them. Just think how much easier and cheaper that was rather than a motorized synchro/selsen system.

 

[pbehn]

They used airmen peddling bicycles to steer the antenna. Stopping, starting again, and reversing was done by using a doorbell to signal them. Just think how much easier and cheaper that was rather than a motorized synchro/selsen system.

I think that was on the later and much more advanced GCI system, which in principle was a chain home transmitter receiver system turned on its side and rotated.. Chain home used huge amounts of electrical power and a lot of people and teleprinters to work around the technical limitations. One station could only give limited information about numbers bearing and altitude, combining info from several stations gave a reasonably accurate "plot". While a radar warning system was an innovation there was little in Chain Home that was in any way new to people working with radios at the time. In any case the main issue wasnt with technicalities, it was with getting the information from the radar operator and to the airfield to then get planes in the air, which sounds incredibly simple but in practice isnt..

 

[MIflyer]

which sounds incredibly simple but in practice isnt..

I understand that the Germans did not use oscilloscope on their ground based radars but instead used dials that read out the data, presumably azimuth, elevation, and range.

One reason for the Dieppe raid was to cut the landline from the German radar in the area, forcing them to go to radio communications to relay the data and thereby enable the RAF to figure out how they relayed that info.

 

[pbehn]

I understand that the Germans did not use oscilloscope on their ground based radars but instead used dials that read out the data, presumably azimuth, elevation, and range.

One reason for the Dieppe raid was to cut the landline from the German radar in the area, forcing them to go to radio communications to relay the data and thereby enable the RAF to figure out how they relayed that info.

That wasnt the point I was making, as long as a system works it is good however the information is presented. Then human nature intervenes. From the fall of France, UK airspace was under constant threat and so everyone was on alert and the systems worked pretty much as planned. The real issues come when a surprise attack is launched at somewhere that has faced little or no threat. The people receiving the info hesitate and double check or even pass it off as something else, the planes and pilots arent there to be scrambled to face a major raid, by the time they get a few planes in the air the enemy has attacked and is heading home. All the systems were there to make a better response to Pearl Harbor than was historically made, but the USA wasnt even at war at the time. The same happened with USA attacks on French ports. The response to a surprise attack on a French port was no indication of what the response to repeated attacks on German ports would be when everyone was awake and prepared.

 

[MIflyer]

The Flying Tigers had a very effective warning system in China based entirely on HUMINT. Would not work just about anywhere else; you could not have Frenchmen radioing the UK when the Germans launched a raid. But the British used inaccurate HUMINT to tell the Germans that their V-1's were landing in the wrong place and thus get them to redirect the bombs to open countryside.

 

[yosimitesam]

That wasnt the point I was making, as long as a system works it is good however the information is presented. Then human nature intervenes. From the fall of France, UK airspace was under constant threat and so everyone was on alert and the systems worked pretty much as planned. The real issues come when a surprise attack is launched at somewhere that has faced little or no threat. The people receiving the info hesitate and double check or even pass it off as something else, the planes and pilots arent there to be scrambled to face a major raid, by the time they get a few planes in the air the enemy has attacked and is heading home. All the systems were there to make a better response to Pearl Harbor than was historically made, but the USA wasnt even at war at the time. The same happened with USA attacks on French ports. The response to a surprise attack on a French port was no indication of what the response to repeated attacks on German ports would be when everyone was awake and prepared.

The British Chain Home system (long wave) and other radars for low-level EW (meter wave) was no less an accomplishment than the cold war NORAD system. It was, in fact, something of a mini-NORAD. This kind of foresight (mainly due to Dowding's efforts) was really looking ahead to the future. Regardless of the crudeness of some of the equipment, it was "good enough." It was the organization that was really a major leap forward in air defense. The various reporting hierarchies along with the vigorous training to work out bugs made it the most advanced EW system throughout the war, and it was a decade or two ahead of its time. Dowding understood that he did not have to WIN the Battle of Britain but only had to NOT LOOSE it, and this strategy proved entirely correct. (Others in the organization disagreed with this strategy which led eventually to an unfortunate outcome for Dowding.) It's a classic case of of the overall SYSTEM being much greater than the sum of the parts. I'm glad the British, over time, came to view Dowding as a prescient hero. "Remember him, for he saved every one of you."

 

[GregP]

But unfortunately they could not do much if they found one, except announce it over the radio. I don't recall seeing any shown carrying bombs or depth charges. A friend of mine owned a Fairchild 24R that flew with the CAP in WWII and actually got a U-boat; they carried bombs. I think they damaged the sub and it ran aground, after which the USN came out and got it. When the USAF Museum found out he had that airplane they insisted they had to have it, and since he was having some trouble with the engine he agreed to donate it to them.

I was out at Chino many years ago They had a very nice looking restored O-47.

Unfortunately, that O-47, used in Flight of the Phoenix after Paul Mantz crashed the movie plane, was destroyed by fire after a gear-up landing at Porterville, CA in 1982. It slid down the runway and caught fire, but there were no fire vehicles immediately available, so it burned substantially before one could get there.

 

[SaparotRob]

Unfortunately, that O-47, used in Flight of the Phoenix after Paul Mantz crashed the movie plane, was destroyed by fire after a gear-up landing at Porterville, CA in 1982. It slid down the runway and caught fire, but there were no fire vehicles immediately available, so it burned substantially before one could get there.

 

[marathag]

The one thing that the B-24 did that B-17 could not match, was long range.
This was more important in the Pacific than over Germany

 

[Alan Stevens]

To use an extreme example, the tiger tank was absolute rubbish compared to the Sherman. The US built 20 to 1 and though they may have had individual superiority in terms of an actual battle weapon, the Sherman wiped, the tiger clean.

Obviously you can have one thing thhe cost a lot or you can have many things that cost less. No, the tiger versus Sherman is an extreme example, but I'm pretty sure that there is a good application of this principle in terms of what occurred in World war II airplanes.

So we know the Lancaster was cheaper to produce and maintain than the Halifax in fact quite by a deal and that's case closed.

But we also have the case of the p47 versus the p51. Now we do know that the p47 cost twice as much. But just in the same way as you have the tiger tank being a more survivable machined the P47 was.

Now is this a big thing in the b24 B17 debate? I think it might be because I feel that the B24 was a much cheaper design to produce.


The Fw190 vs Me109 being another. Was the crappy undercarriage worth it for ease of manufacturing.


What do other members think?

Ta 152, Me 262, Shiden, Raiden

Very advanced but built in very small numbers compared to the main Allied bombers and fighters.

 

[Sisu]

Unfortunately, that O-47, used in Flight of the Phoenix after Paul Mantz crashed the movie plane, was destroyed by fire after a gear-up landing at Porterville, CA in 1982. It slid down the runway and caught fire, but there were no fire vehicles immediately available, so it burned substantially before one could get there.

Ah, the forlorn memory ghosting through the Chino smog...

 

[GrauGeist]

The one thing that the B-24 did that B-17 could not match, was long range.
This was more important in the Pacific than over Germany

The B-17 had both Ferry range or Combat Radius range that was equal to, or exceeded, the B-24.

 

[SaparotRob]

The B-17 had both Ferry range or Combat Radius range that was equal to, or exceeded, the B-24.

And look better doing it.

 

[GregP]

Ah, the forlorn memory ghosting through the Chino smog...

At least we don't have much smog anymore.

 

[gruad]

The B-17 had both Ferry range or Combat Radius range that was equal to, or exceeded, the B-24.

The B17 was more valuable as a bomber hence the delegation of B24 to VLR role.