Aircraft murders

[GrauGeist]

Unfortunately, I've lost far more friends from aircraft accidents than car accidents.

Sorry to hear that

Here in the U.S., we are a car culture and with such a large population and high numbers of automobiles, it's no surprise that auto accidents are the number one non-disease related cause of death in the U.S.

In otherwords, on average, 2,000,000 Americans die of various causes each year. Out of that, roughly 35,000 are auto related. Now, on the same annual average, less than 1,000 Americans die from aviation related (in North America proper) accidents (GA, Civil, etc)

 

[gumbyk]

Yes, but if you calculate that on a per hours of exposure, or per mile travelled, the figures would look quite different.

 

[stan reid]

In deaths per person mile of travel, things like bicycling and walking are far more dangerous than travel by auto. It doesn't seem that way because you don't normally walk 15,000 miles in a year.

 

[stan reid]

Buddy Holly crash 3 Feb 1959 Clearlake Iowa in the spring while clearing the field for planting the farmer finds a .22 pistol belonging to Buddy which had been fired

That is a puzzling case.

 

[stona]

That is a puzzling case.

Not really. The farmer, Albert Juel, told the Sheriff's office when handing in the gun that it still worked. He had test fired it. Truth is usually more boring than fiction.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stan reid]

WOW! If that's what happened, that farmer was a little on the strange side. Were the victims' wallets empty too?

 

[stona]

Buddy Holly carried the weapon in the false bottom of an overnight bag. The bag was retrieved from the crash site by Larry Holley after he had identified his brother's body. The bottom had been ripped out in the crash and the weapon was not found at the time. It was found later that spring by Juel who, having fired it, handed it in to the Sheriff's office.

Holly is clutching the bag in this photograph taken at the Laramar Ballroom in Fort Dodge, Iowa on January 30th 1959, a few days before the fatal flight.

There really is NO mystery here at all, but why let well known and documented facts get in the way of a good story.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stan reid]

I would call that tampering with evidence.

 

[stona]

I would call that tampering with evidence.

Maybe it was, but no one thought so at the time. Juel found the gun in his field a couple of months after the crash and I guess curiosity got the better of him and he fired it. He admitted it to the Sheriff's office when he handed it in and was never charged with anything.
The gun was found along with other personal items like Holly's spectacles and Big Bopper's watch when the snow melted in the spring. Those items were also handed in to the Sherriff's office and remained there until 1980. The wreckage of the aircraft was strewn over more than 300 yards.

The Civil Aeronautics Board report concluded that the probable cause of the accident was,

"the pilot's unwise decision to embark on a flight which would necessitate flying solely by instruments when he was not properly certificated or qualified to do so. Contributing factors were serious deficiencies in the weather briefing, and the pilot's unfamiliarity with the instrument which determines the attitude of the aircraft."

The reason for Peters unfamiliarity with this instrument is clarified in the report.

"When his instrument training was taken, several aircraft were used and these were all equipped with the conventional type artificial horizon and none with the Sperry Attitude Gyro such as was installed in Bonanza N 3794N. These two instruments differ greatly in their pictorial display.
The conventional artificial horizon provides a direct reading indication of the bank and pitch attitude of the aircraft which is accurately indicated by a miniature aircraft pictorially displayed against a horizon bar and as if observed from the rear. The Sperry F3 gyro also provides a direct reading indication of the bank and pitch attitude of the aircraft, but its pictorial presentation is achieved by using a stabilized sphere whose free-floating movements behind a miniature aircraft presents pitch information with a sensing exactly opposite from that depicted by the conventional artificial horizon."

It continues.

"The Board concludes that pilot Peterson, when a short distance from the airport, was confronted with this situation. Because of fluctuation of the rate instruments caused by gusty winds he would have been forced to concentrate and rely greatly on the attitude gyro, an instrument with which he was not completely familiar. The pitch display of this instrument is the reverse of the instrument he was accustomed to; therefore, he could have become confused and thought that he was making a climbing turn when in reality he was making a descending turn. The fact that the aircraft struck the ground in a steep turn but with the nose lowered only slightly, indicates that some control was being effected at the time. The weather briefing supplied to the pilot was seriously inadequate in that it failed to even mention adverse flying conditions which should have been highlighted."

Incidentally the pilot, Roger Arthur Peters, was only 21 years old but had a total of 711 flying hours of which 128 were on the Beech Bonanza, the type involved in the fatal accident.

The gun had nothing to do with the accident.

It's always a shame when the facts get in the way of a good story

Cheers

Steve

 

[stan reid]

Another suspected aircraft murder is Daj Hammarskjold who died in a 1961 crash in central Africa. Some have asserted that his plane was shot down by a former RAF pilot who was working for powerful individuals in the breakaway Katanga Province.

 

[stan reid]

Another suspected aircraft murder is Daj Hammarskjold who died in a 1961 crash in central Africa. Some have asserted that his plane was shot down by a former RAF pilot who was working for powerful individuals in the breakaway Katanga Province.

If I remember correctly, the alleged shoot down plane was not a traditional warplane.

 

[stan reid]

Buddy Holly carried the weapon in the false bottom of an overnight bag. The bag was retrieved from the crash site by Larry Holley after he had identified his brother's body. The bottom had been ripped out in the crash and the weapon was not found at the time. It was found later that spring by Juel who, having fired it, handed it in to the Sheriff's office.

Day after tomorrow is the 56th anniversary of this event, the event that sort of put the exclamation point on the end of the 1950s, I think.

 

[stan reid]

If I remember correctly, the alleged shoot down plane was not a traditional warplane.

Supposedly more of a traditional private plane that had been fitted with offensive weapons.

 

[gumbyk]

Day after tomorrow is the 56th anniversary of this event, the event that sort of put the exclamation point on the end of the 1950s, I think.

Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News

An investigator thinks that something else caused the crash as the weather wasn't as bad as reported. I can't find the article right now but the guy who owned the aircraft is still alive and the wreck still exists.

 

[pbehn]

Looks like the NTSB is considering re-opening the investigation... Buddy Holly plane crash investigation to be reopened? - CBS News

I think there is a mentality that cannot believe famous people have accidents. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me (especially in France and Germany) that Diana Princess of Wales was killed by secret services, completely ignoring the fact that if she put her bloody seat belt on she would have had no more than a sore neck and bruising. Whatever happens Buddy Holly wont be back let him rest.

 

[gumbyk]

I think there is a mentality that cannot believe famous people have accidents. I have lost count of the number of people who have told me (especially in France and Germany) that Diana Princess of Wales was killed by secret services, completely ignoring the fact that if she put her bloody seat belt on she would have had no more than a sore neck and bruising. Whatever happens Buddy Holly wont be back let him rest.

Yeah, but there is also pressure to get answers quickly when a celebrity is involved, so the investigation is under huge pressure to get to a conclusion quickly, which can lead to errors being made.

 

[pbehn]

Yeah, but there is also pressure to get answers quickly when a celebrity is involved, so the investigation is under huge pressure to get to a conclusion quickly, which can lead to errors being made.

If Diana and Dodi Fayed had put on their seatbelts then they would have lived, as their body guard did, no celebrities would have died and the drunk driver would be just that, a drunk driver. If I get drunk and wipe out my unbelted family no one would return a verdict of unlawful killing. Unless a celebrity dies of old age there is always a conspiracy I blame the internet...harrrrummpphh

 

[gumbyk]

I wasn't talking of any specific investigation, just generalities.

P.S. Here in NZ, you would be found guilty of manslaughter in your case.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agree about letting it rest...

There's a guy investigating the weight and balance of the aircraft which should have been mentioned in the original NTSB report. Additionally it's coming to light that the weather wasn't as bad as first reported. There is also a theory about either Valenz or Richardson trying to change seats in flight with Holly as the plane was climbing out. Only Peterson's body remained with the aircraft as the other bodies were thrown from the wreck. I think the NTSB report mentions that the front seatbelt mounting was torn from the aircraft.