airman killed in pistol mishap at F.E. Warren AFB

[mikewint]

He told me that some of his colleges had the habit of looking straight into the barrel to see if there was a bullet in the chamber.

Marcel, IMHO, a truly inconceivable action. In my experience barrels are long narrow and DARK. To see all the way to the breech one would need a small penlight angled just right, out of your line of sight to see all the way to the breech.
Possible but why bother when the simple action of opening the bolt allows you to eject any round present and see the entire breech in one simple action.
Lever-action rifles, drop the lever, ejecting any round present and exposing the entire breech
Even on a fully automatic rifle it is easy to pull the cocking lever back and lock it in place ejecting any round present and exposing the entire breech.

 

[Frog]

A bullet in the chamber would sure as **** freak me out. It raises too many questions.

I don't know if just a casing is better or worse. It depends on the circumstances ...

A bullet inserted in the chamber should freely slide ; a bullet stuck into the rifling would be a PIA, and worse if there is a second one...
For the case, a stuck brass can be an overpressure or too close dimensions indication which is not very pleasant.

 

[T Bolt]

I know a lot of people will give me cr@p for this, but I never carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I know this adds time if I ever need to use it but I would rather add the second of two it takes to pull back the slide than feel unsafe walking around with a round in the chamber.

 

[Marcel]

I know a lot of people will give me cr@p for this, but I never carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I know this adds time if I ever need to use it but I would rather add the second of two it takes to pull back the slide than feel unsafe walking around with a round in the chamber.

Yeah, that's what I would expect indeed. Again, I am drilled by my father in law, who would even lecture my kids about how they handled their nerf-guns.

 

[mikewint]

I know a lot of people will give me cr@p for this, but I never carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I know this adds time if I ever need to use it but I would rather add the second of two it takes to pull back the slide than feel unsafe walking around with a round in the chamber.

Glenn and Marcel, I am a licensed Concealed Carry gun owner who always carries a fully loaded gun in public. I take classes and shooting range testing every two years. Around the house my hand guns and 20ga auto have loaded magazines and an empty breech chamber. If I were to suspect a break-in or home invasion (home is in the Boonies of Arkansas with a forest for a back yard) I would first want to investigate the disturbance so time is not a critical factor.
However in a public scenario those seconds could mean the difference between survival or non as the baddie would already be armed with his/her weapon out and shots fired. So with my nerves at FULL Twang and adrenalin at full pump I do not want to be fumbling around trying to rack a slide to load a live round. Therefore my Concealed Carry gun is always loaded WITH a live round in the chamber.
Now, that gun is carried in a Kydex IWB holster that completely covers both the slide and trigger and it has been molded to precisely fit all the gun's contours. With the gun in this holster it is impossible access either the trigger or slide. Only the gun's handle protrudes from the holster and the rigid Kydex and/or my clothing cannot snag either one. On the draw my index finger is ALWAYS outside the trigger a habit drilled into me since 1956.
I have zero accidental discharge concerns.

 

[OldParts]

There are two problems associated with the the 320 Sig. One was a drop hazard where if dropped and it hit at just the right angle the pistol would fire. The second issue is if the trigger is under tension and the slide is manipulated from side to side (wiggled) then the striker will drop the firing pin. There is a group of folks on youtube that have demonstrated that many striker fired pistols will drop the firing pin when the slide is manipulated and the trigger is under tension. I have several Glocks. I treat them very carefully. With a round in the chamber then I always have them in a holster. Now, I am going to make certain nothing is ever pointed at anything that could be harmed even when holstered. The 320 seems to have more problems but all striker fired pistols should have some form of firing pin block that requires a trigger to be depressed as absolutely necessary. I have a couple of Sigs but they are older P220s which are DA/SA with manual de cocking mechanisms. You do not want to slam a pistol down (even when it is holstered) with the muzzle pointing toward yourself or anyone else. ( I don't know if this happened but I don't know???)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I know a lot of people will give me cr@p for this, but I never carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I know this adds time if I ever need to use it but I would rather add the second of two it takes to pull back the slide than feel unsafe walking around with a round in the chamber.

Don't worry, I'm the same way

 

[Ivan1GFP]

I know a lot of people will give me cr@p for this, but I never carry a gun with a round in the chamber. I know this adds time if I ever need to use it but I would rather add the second of two it takes to pull back the slide than feel unsafe walking around with a round in the chamber.

When I used to carry on a regular basis, I would MOSTLY do as you do. If I saw that things were about to escalate (only one occasion) and I was wrong Thank God) I would chamber a round, de cock and replace the gun. First shot if needed would be a pretty quick DA shot.
Chambering a round wasn't all that slow if you have the proper gun and are well practiced. I would not try this with a M1911 because many of those guns tend to have very heavy recoil springs and may not be as fast to get into action at least for me, and I shoot those guns a lot.

- Ivan.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

I'm a European and not a gun owner. Just a question to the ones who do own guns.

Isn't it normal practice to make sure there is no bullet in the chamber when putting the gun down?

If you happen to be a sentry, there might be a reason to have a gun with a round in the chamber while it is in your holster.
As for taking the holster off you belt and putting it on the counter, a critical rule was not followed.
Look for Jeff Cooper's rules on gun handling. They may not prevent every accident but would have made this fatality much less likely.
If you observe people who handle loaded guns on a regular basis, you will notice that they tend to clear guns a lot and guns generally are put on the bench or table with the action open and obviously unloaded.

- Ivan.

 

[HP52]

According to The War Zone site, "Global Strike Command (AFGSC) has ordered an indefinite pause in the use of M18 pistols following a recent fatal incident at F.E. Warren Air Force Base in Wyoming. This comes just two weeks after the disclosure of an FBI report that added to long-standing concerns about the ability of Sig Sauer P320-series pistols, a family that includes the M18, to fire without their triggers being pulled. Just days after that report became public, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) issued a permanent ban on the use of P320s.

"There are additional as-yet unconfirmed claims circulating online that the airman assigned to the 90th Security Forces Squadron died after their M18 went off without the trigger being pulled. The individual in question is claimed to have removed the pistol, still in its holster, from their belt and put it on a table before it went off."

M18 Pistols Pulled From Use By Air Force Global Strike Command

When 455 Squadron was posted to Russia in 1942, they had to withdraw pistol ammunition when a 144 RAF airman was killed accidentally by someone not used to or ; trained in small arms handling

 

[special ed]

I may have told of this incident before, so excuse please if so. Many years ago, one of my customer contacts had been a chief on an LST during WW2, so when I made a service call I heard Navy stories. On one trip to Iwo Jima delivering supplies & equipment, a Marine was brought on board as a courtesy for his brother, USN crewman. Apparently these shipboard visits for showers and chow were often made in the fleet when a known family was ashore. He brought with him a Japanese rifle as a souvenir and while the Marine was in the shower, the rifle was discharged and the visiting Marine was killed.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

The stories you all are telling may be true, but are about wartime conditions in which someone whose primary duties really do not involve small arms may have access to a firearm because of combat conditions or in the second case as a trophy.
The Airman who was killed in this case and probably the other fellow involved was in a USAF security unit.
I believe this are the typical Black Beret gate guards at most USAF installations. Their duties DO involve small arms handling and use, and by my personal observation do not appear to be any less competent than USN or US Army equivalents at other installations. At one point, my work involved visiting quite a few US and allied military installations.

- Ivan.

 

[elbmc1969]

Another airman has been arrested for involuntary manslaughter in this case and has been accused of making false statements:

"Since then, the investigation has progressed and an individual has now been arrested on suspicion of making a false official statement, obstruction of justice, and involuntary manslaughter," an Air Force spokesperson said in an emailed statement. "As with all individuals accused of a crime, the person arrested in this case is presumed to be innocent until proven guilty in a court of law."

Air Force Announces Arrest Related to Firearm Death of Airman That Prompted M18 Probe

The news marks a major development in the ongoing investigation into the circumstances behind Lovan's death and the scrutiny of Sig Sauer's P320 handgun.

www.military.com

Of course, people have been accused or arrested in cases that have later proved to be accidents (the Iowa turret explosion, the Bonhomme Richard fire), so we'll have to see what shakes out.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

This news is actually several days old.
My belief is that the gun and holster actually belonged to the airman who was just arrested and not the one who was killed.
That would explain the "making false claims", "obstruction of justice" and "involuntary manslaughter".
If you have just unclipped a holster from your belt, it does not seem like a natural movement to hold it in a way that you put it down with the muzzle facing toward yourself.

- Ivan.

 

[R Leonard]

And that's all why I prefer the M1911A1 . . . thumb safety, grip safety, muzzle safety, half-cock safety, me safety. Round in the chamber at all times, otherwise, what's the point?

 

[Barrett]

Thinking out side of the box on this. I was a Marksmanship NCO for my MI Army National Guard Company.
Could this be a case of the pistol being hot from firing and the chambered round cooking off???
I am just asking the question.

Almost certainly not. Otherwise it woulda been too hot to hold.

 

[Barrett]

And that's all why I prefer the M1911A1 . . . thumb safety, grip safety, muzzle safety, half-cock safety, me safety. Round in the chamber at all times, otherwise, what's the point?

I'm with Rich. Like totally.
It's been noted by a combat experienced Marine O-6 that if the 1911 were any safer, it would be useless as a weapon!

 

[Ivan1GFP]

While I am a great fan of the M1911 pistols, (I own more of them than any other kind of pistol), I believe there are lots of potential problems with the design. Just about everyone makes them these days and I believe most of them leave the factory with problems of one sort or another. It isn't until you get into the $1500 price range that you can count on a reliable and reasonably accurate gun.
The problem is that there are so many critical dimensions and not everyone understands them. These days there are a lot of parts that are Metal Injection Moulded. Some are good. Some are not. I have worn out both kinds of slide stops.
Unless you stick with 230 grain ball ammunition, you will need to figure out what else your gun(s) will run reliably with. 230 grain Truncated Cone is pretty reliable in my guns (as are most things). The H&G No.68 SWC gets mentioned a lot but it is amazing how many slightly different versions of that you can find out there.
Pressures in this gun are somewhat limited by the unsupported brass case at the lower rear. Depending on the headspace and overzealous ramping, there may be less support than you think.
Another issue is finding magazines that will function with a wide variety of bullet shapes and will reliably activate the slidestop.
In my opinion this is a design flaw. The 230 grain round nose bullet leaves very little room in the magazine body for the slide stop to extend further to push the slide stop up. If the slide stop were longer for more positive engagement, the bullet nose would hit it and activate it. There obviously is room there, but there isn't much.

- Ivan.

 

[SaparotRob]

While I am a great fan of the M1911 pistols, (I own more of them than any other kind of pistol), I believe there are lots of potential problems with the design. Just about everyone makes them these days and I believe most of them leave the factory with problems of one sort or another. It isn't until you get into the $1500 price range that you can count on a reliable and reasonably accurate gun.
The problem is that there are so many critical dimensions and not everyone understands them. These days there are a lot of parts that are Metal Injection Moulded. Some are good. Some are not. I have worn out both kinds of slide stops.
Unless you stick with 230 grain ball ammunition, you will need to figure out what else your gun(s) will run reliably with. 230 grain Truncated Cone is pretty reliable in my guns (as are most things). The H&G No.68 SWC gets mentioned a lot but it is amazing how many slightly different versions of that you can find out there.
Pressures in this gun are somewhat limited by the unsupported brass case at the lower rear. Depending on the headspace and overzealous ramping, there may be less support than you think.
Another issue is finding magazines that will function with a wide variety of bullet shapes and will reliably activate the slidestop.
In my opinion this is a design flaw. The 230 grain round nose bullet leaves very little room in the magazine body for the slide stop to extend further to push the slide stop up. If the slide stop were longer for more positive engagement, the bullet nose would hit it and activate it. There obviously is room there, but there isn't much.

- Ivan.

I had wanted to acquire a 1911 but which? What manufacturer produces a new, bog stock, government issue, U.S. Army approved, no foolin', the real deal, original type, unfiddled with, unmessed with, uncorrected, unperfected, "that is my father's M1911", M1911?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I had wanted to acquire a 1911 but which? What manufacturer produces a new, bog stock, government issue, U.S. Army approved, no foolin', the real deal, original type, unfiddled with, unmessed with, uncorrected, unperfected, "that is my father's M1911", M1911?

I can't recommend any brand, I'm not that well-informed, but when it comes to guns I prefer "works as advertised" to "what Gramps carried". A .45 frame is not a bad choice in either case, but I don't mind a little fussin' to get the niggles out of it.