"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (34 Viewers)

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Torch said:
Disaster in the Oval Office: Dems lead Zelensky, Ukraine off a cliff with pressure to reject mineral deal
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Then you have this on his own twitter account:


https://twitter.com/ChrisMurphyCT/status/1896304529613942920/photo/1

Seems like we all suffer from biased interpretations in our chosen media.

Edit:fixed link
 
Torch ,

Sorry, but repeat posting material that was already shared at #37,627 doesn't make it any more correct.

As multiple posts have noted (#37,628 to #37,634, #37,637 to #37,638, and #37,640), there's no direct connection between Murphy's tweet and the mineral deal. Murphy's tweet simply notes that Zelensky doesn't want to accept a deal that gives Russia everything and doesn't protect Ukraine.

What would you do if you were in Zelensky's shoes? Sell out your country to an aggressor that has pummeled your cities, and kidnapped your citizens?
 
Let's not forget that the issue here is not the USA, despite the administration's usual power play where it sucks the oxygen out of the room, the issue is what the world must do about ejecting Russia from Ukraine without the USA. Trump's demands for "transparency" are tainted by his blatant self-interest, which everyone except his core supporters can see, therefore the USA cannot be relied on anymore. Anyone with an appreciation for history can see the outcome of the USA's current stance, but I digress. The one thing that is happening right now is that the current White House leadership is making the discussion all about themselves as the US President likes to do. Keep the conversation focussed on him and away from what is really going on - which is working entirely in Russia's favour. The same game, different beneficiaries.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
I never said we didn't take defeats; we did. We got pushed out of both those countries because we supported very unpopular regimes. This, however, is abject fawning over Kremlin objectives to the detriment of the American national interest.
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and for some weird "military intelligence" reason the US absolutely and totally believed that bombing, shooting and napalming villages and villagers, and the properties of those villagers, would make the victims support the regime and the US/Aus/NZ etc invaders. Those villagers only wanted to be left alone by both sides.

If any of the absolute morons who came up with that idea had for one minute turned their brains on and asked themselves "which side would I support if I was being bombed/napalmed/shot at and my food crops and cattle destroyed by one side and I was virtually ignored by the other" they would have known that the only possible end result was defeat and humiliation. If they had actually turned their brains on they would have known that every time they killed a civilian they would make Viet Cong sympathisers of the victims family.

If any invader of the USA had committed the war crimes of the My Lai massacre - Wikipedia in the USA then the USA would still be screaming about what criminals they were and demanding retribution. No one outside the USA considers three years house arrest for just one of the many Americans involved as even remotely approaching justice.

Instead while the Russians are committing many of the same war crimes in Ukraine, the American federal government is saying that Russia did not invade Ukraine , that the Russian war crimes must not be investigated, that there can never be any non Russian "peace keepers" in Ukraine etc. Obviously it the current American governments ambition that no Russian soldier will even suffer house arrest. In the other war that the administration is currently supporting they obviously believe, just like the US did in Vietnam, bombing hospitals and schools and starving the populace will somehow create world peace when in fact all it does is create more supporters of the terrorists they want to pretend they are destroying.
 
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DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
The ONLY acceptable peace deal involves Putin and Russia getting out of Ukraine.
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IDK about that. China and Britain came to a peace deal with Britain keeping Hong Kong for 156 years. Mexico and the USA came to a peace deal with the USA keeping, presumably forever what would become California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, most of Arizona and Colorado, and parts of Oklahoma, Kansas, and Wyoming. Denmark came to a peace deal with Prussia, with Germany to this day keeping Schleswig/Holstein and Lauenburg. History tells us that there's a good chance that Ukraine will accept a peace deal where Russia keeps a chunk of Ukraine. I could see Russia keeping Crimea and the Donbas but exiting all or most of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia.
 


Regarding sanctions - Nvidia in the US has made squillions selling sanctioned electronics to Russia and even invites the Russian military to a its developers conferences and the US government has done not one thing to stop this sanction busting so for the US to complain about India and China buying Russian oil is what is politely called hypocrisy.

I think it is now impossible to stop Russia without the civilised world saying stop now and pull out or we are coming in on Ukraine's side. The current US administrations indicated desire to support Russia to the detriment of everyone in the civilised world can only result in Russia having a breathing space before doing a repeat of Ukraine, with US support, on other civilised nations. The only two options are a "small" decisive war now while Russia is relatively weak or a much bigger one later after all US sanctions are lifted (and that will happen soon) and Putin has an endless supply of US electronics etc.
 
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And I always had though that NATO purpose was to keep the USA in, the USSR out and Germany down.
 


Agreed.

For those who disagree -- IF you are actually capable, think of how you personally would think and react if you were a member of the AMERICAN population to each and every one of the following situations.
  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the USA invaded Ukraine.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the USA can not join NATO.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the USA can not have any security guarantees.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the USA must give Russia 50% of all its mineral assets.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that there can not be any NATO or other non-Ukrainian peace keepers in the USA.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and making all those other totally offensive lying statements that the current US administration is making.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the US president must resign.

  • Think of how you would think and react if the US president had an official uniform and was accused of being ill mannered for wearing that official uniform of the United States President/Commander in Chief to a meeting with the Ukrainian President.

  • Think of how you would think and react if Ukraine had invaded the USA and Putin was supporting Ukraine and saying that the US MUST sign away all it rights and give Ukraine everything it wants

  • Think also of how you would think and react if Greenland, a member of NATO, threatened to invade the USA, who is also a member of the same Treaty Organisation.

Now MAYBE you can begin to understand why the civilised world is supporting Ukraine and condemning the current US administration.

Now consider the other matter that is very concerning to all the civilised world. The worlds two foremost news agencies were prohibited from attending that WH ambush yet Russia's TASS was invited. No one who has an IQ larger than their shoe size is buying the WH claim that TASS conned their way in. Everyone knows there are only two ways to be allowed to enter the Oval Office
  1. you undergo a very deep and thorough vetting by the secret service and do not fail ANY stage of the process, or
  2. you are personally invited by the President himself.
If you do not think that reason for massive concern then you are among a minute percentage of the civilised worlds citizens
 
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Thank you for confirming that all President Zelensky said was EXACTLY what any US president would say if the situation was reversed.

If the situation was reversed and your president did not say exactly that you would call him a puppet of the other government and demand his removal.
 
Torch said:
Sen. Chris Murphy Confirms Zelensky Planned to Reject Trump's Mineral Deal Before White House Meeting – [your]NEWS
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Go and read the actual statement Sen Murphy made, not some political hacks interpretation of it. It is in post 37,637.

Then HONESTLY tell me that if you were a member of any CIVILISED nation you would not demand that your President make such a statement.

Then HONESTLY tell me that if the US and UKR roles were reversed you would not demand that your President make such a statement.
 

I did not say it was likely or the only deal, just that it was the only acceptable one.
 
Admiral Beez said:
China and Britain came to a peace deal with Britain keeping Hong Kong for 156 years
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That wasn't a peace deal - there was no war at the time of the treaties (as I understood it?) The negotiation to leave honoured the original agreement under which Hong Kong had been administered since it was leased in 1898 for 99 years...I'm not sure examples of territorial negotiations and horse-trading conducted in peace time are necessarily very analogous or comparable to armed invasion and an active conflict... A very different kettle of fish with higher and more complex stakes. Made even more impossible, thanks to recent showboating and reality show style drama taking the place of statesmanship and diplomacy.

....Oh grief. I've been dragged back in again! .... Can I just add, its encouraging to see that the sane, sceptical, empathetic, moral and rational are in the majority here. The lessons of history are repeated and very clear. As should be the ability to recognise very open and unambiguous malign human characteristics. The world looks a little less mad, so thank you for helping me believe that maybe the wise outnumber the naive.

"Each one hopes that if he feeds the crocodile enough, the crocodile will eat him last. All of them hope that the storm will pass before their turn comes to be devoured. But I fear greatly that the storm will not pass. It will rage and it will roar ever more loudly, ever more widely."
 
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