Why am I not surprised?
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter XBe02Drvr
- Start date
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Why am I not surprised?
Possibility 1: Possible methods of producing an epidemiological disaster in enemy nations (i.e. biological warfare).
Possibility 2: They're claiming the Ukrainians were developing a bioweapons capability and seek to destroy said ability.
Admiral Beez
Major
If I were Sweden and Finland I'd seize the opportunity to toss any Kurdish terror organizations and their supporters back to Kurdistan or to Istanbul so that their new NATO ally can deal with them.
MSN
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For 6 months...
Admiral Beez
Major
Rubbish. It's not "The" Ukraine any more than it's The Russia. You're either espousing or fallen for the Russian tropes.
If I were Sweden and Finland I'd seize the opportunity to toss any Kurdish terror organizations and their supporters back to Kurdistan or to Istanbul so that their new NATO ally can deal with them.
MSN
www.msn.com
Are they really terror organization? So they can be brutally murdered?
I spent quite a bit of time in Kurdistan and at KDP headquarters near Irbel. They didn't seem very "terroristy" to me.
Admiral Beez
Major
The PKK is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada. But who knows, had we caught him George Washington would have been strung up as a terrorist leader, and now he's a beloved founder the Free world. I don't see why Finland and Sweden can't expel any Kurdish "freedom" organizations to safety in Kurdistan.
I'm thinking the troll needs to be ignored. He's pushing pure Putin apologia.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I still think we're being pranked.
Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
Thump's example of the assailant holding a gun and demanding his wallet - is a great example.
We cannot expect that a criminal respects or acts according to our civilized expectations or interpretation towards such actions. Upon understanding that, most important is to avoid dark alleys in the first place and not to walk there on purpose in order to prove a point.
1. The UN framework has clear provisions as to how and what decides upon the "belonging" of territories (respectively the inhabitants free decision making process in such a case)
This has been executed already many times successfully were UN observers and troops ensure fair and free polls. - the same process should have been implemented in regards to Crimea
latest since 2015. Till an agreement is reached - sanction Russia until Putin respectively Russia pukes.
2. NATO and the UN vouch for the freedom of the Ukraine - making it absolutely clear that if Russia attacks Ukraine, NATO and the UN are legible to intervene militarily, in order to stress
the "resolute will" NATO and the UN or just NATO stations 3-4 divisions in e.g. Poland and Romania. In return Ukraine commit themselves towards absolute neutrality. (They can bring in military advisers from e.g. Israel, Sweden, Switzerland, Finland or whoever except from NATO members) in order to enhance the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
As for 2. at least as long as a Putin or alike rules Russia - no one knows as to who rules Russia in the future - that's why smart politics take years to work - unless one doesn't care about a war maybe happening due to stupid and rash actions.
As for Putin maybe supporting or planing to support subversive actions in other Ukraine regions - well introduce the known counter measures. And again as for 1. there is a clear UN framework to handle such actions or the inhabitants wishes.
It's all actually known, proven and very simple to do - if one wishes to do so. And is far cheaper then later having to invest a trillion $ in order to get a totally devastated country back on track - needless to mention tens of thousands of civilians not getting killed in the first place.
Due to the stuoid and rash actions by NATO, in the absolute worst case - whatever Putin can't have of the Ukraine now, he will nuke the place to the dark ages (During western heading winds) - making sure that NATO won't get any benefit out of it. Just like the criminal will shot Thump, if he won't give him his lizard skin boots.
So unless one want's to risk his life by walking into a dark alley in order to proof a point (telling the criminal to think about his action, throw away his gun and just walk of and become a better person) don't walk stupidly into a dark alley.
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Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
According to the EU - yes.
Since the first official ban of the PKK by the German state in 1993 (then by the USA in 1997 and most recently by the EU in 2002),
According to Moscow news, PKK news and anyone else
The PKK Ban: A continuation of the injustice against the Kurds
Nilüfer Koç In November, many intellectuals, philosophers, lawyers, parliamentarians, writers and activists launched a campaign within the framework of the
medyanews.net
2020-2-6 · The U.S. military has halted a secret military intelligence cooperation program with Turkey that for years was used to aid Ankara in targeting the Kurdish Workers Party or PKK,......
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
So much for your "facts" - maybe you should really read up the "facts"
- Dialogue and cooperation started when newly independent Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994).
- Relations were strengthened with the signing of the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, which established the NATO-Ukraine Commission (NUC) to take cooperation forward.
- Since 2009, the NUC has overseen Ukraine's Euro-Atlantic integration process, including reforms under the Annual National Programme (ANP).
- Cooperation has deepened over time and is mutually beneficial, with Ukraine actively contributing to NATO-led operations and missions.
- Priority is given to support for comprehensive reform in the security and defence sector, which is vital for Ukraine's democratic development and for strengthening its ability to defend itself.
And again:
there were two options for NATO and the Ukraine latest since 2019, a clever diplomatic one, or a rather stupid/arrogant one - unfortunately NATO and Ukraine opted for the latter one.
And now since February 2022 we have to deal with the result of their preferred option.
I'd like to see a valid source for the emboldened claim you've made. Be specific: name the operations and forces involved, and the dates, and link to the source for this information, please.
That's the only point that might indicate a serious military relationship with NATO. Please support it.
Additionally, a sovereign nation has the right to determine its own foreign policy -- agree, or disagree?
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Um...
"Western heading winds" - nope, the jet stream moves west to east, meaning fallout will head towards Russia and China. Think hard about the last nation mentioned...
This diatribe about NATO being the villain in all this is tiresome.
Let's spin the "way back" wheel for a history lesson:
The Soviet Union demanded territory from Finland because their border was too close to Leningrad.
This was because of "security concerns". Mind you, NATO didn't exist at the time, so we can't use that as a bullshit excuse.
Finland's response would be along the lines of "Soviet ship, go f**k yourself" and the Winter War was on.
Let's give this "NATO is the evil empire and the root of all problems" a rest already, FFS.
"Western heading winds" - nope, the jet stream moves west to east, meaning fallout will head towards Russia and China. Think hard about the last nation mentioned...
This diatribe about NATO being the villain in all this is tiresome.
Let's spin the "way back" wheel for a history lesson:
The Soviet Union demanded territory from Finland because their border was too close to Leningrad.
This was because of "security concerns". Mind you, NATO didn't exist at the time, so we can't use that as a bullshit excuse.
Finland's response would be along the lines of "Soviet ship, go f**k yourself" and the Winter War was on.
Let's give this "NATO is the evil empire and the root of all problems" a rest already, FFS.
buffnut453
Captain
It's easy to be smart after the event.
What actions could the UN take on Crimea or to protect Ukraine when Russia, as a voting member of the Security Council, has right of veto? In order for the UN to do anything requires Russia to play along...and we have plenty of history on how much Russia respects the conventions of the UN.
As for NATO, we've been around this one before. NATO does not have any mandate to protect nations who are not signatories to the agreement. Yes, NATO could, in theory, act outside its borders but that requires a mandate from the UN,...which leads us back to my previous point. It would also play right into Putin's narrative of NATO being an offensive threat to Russia.
If it's so "known, proven and simple" maybe you should run for senior office...President, Chancellor, or perhaps even UN or NATO Secretaries General.
The problem with dark alleys is that often we stumble into them before we know where they are. Unlike the scary movies, they aren't marked by dramatic music in a minor key. Human beings make mistakes or mis-steps. They misread situations and make the wrong decisions for all the right reasons. Then there's the bad people who undermine the best intentions of the good guys by finding workarounds or counters to actions. Then there's the law of unintended consequences (as Putin is learning right now). I'm afraid the LAST words I'd use to describe strategy and international relations are "known, proven and simple."
Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
It's from the link, given in Graugeist's post and accessible on any official NATO site.
Relations with Ukraine
The security of Ukraine is of great importance to NATO and its member states. The Alliance fully supports Ukraine’s inherent right to self-defence, and its right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. Relations between NATO and Ukraine date back to the early 1990s...
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Jagdflieger
Senior Airman
- 580
- Mar 23, 2022
No, it's what politicians are paid end elected to do - act before things go bad.
Any person knowledgeable with the Russian-Ukrain issue knew about this latest since 2014.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
It's from the link, given in Graugeist's post and accessible on any official NATO site.
Relations with Ukraine
The security of Ukraine is of great importance to NATO and its member states. The Alliance fully supports Ukraine’s inherent right to self-defence, and its right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. Relations between NATO and Ukraine date back to the early 1990s...www.nato.int
I notice you didn't answer my question.
buffnut453
Captain
Bollocks! Politicians are paid to represent their constituents. They are far from all-knowing.
Taking action is easy when you only have one problem to solve but, unfortunately, that's seldom the situation. Just look at all the hand-wringing across Europe about how best to wean off Russian oil and gas while struggling to respond to Putin while not escalating to nuclear war. Then there's dealing with a problem like Erdogan where EVERY other NATO member is happy for Finland and Sweden to join. Please explain how leaders see crap like that coming?
The problems back in 2014-2015 over Ukraine were no less complex. Again, quit applying the retrospectroscope and assuming it's easy to foresee the future.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
He won't and he spun the hell out of several points on their page (which let the air out of his narrative, btw).
