MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
Send lawyers. I presume as targets.
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter XBe02Drvr
- Start date
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RogerdeLluria
Staff Sergeant
- 1,325
- Jul 5, 2015
IMHO, this vid is total bullshit:
- Sending Leopard 2A4 is infinitely better than sending no tanks.
- 2A4 is way superior to the T-62 it may face.
- AFPDS ammo is not an issue, there has been little to none tank to tank combat in Ukraine.
- Training is not an issue, Spain has offered to train Ukrainians in Spain and Poland I think.
- They are not really in bad state, they are hibernated. They where stripped of batteries, and any liquid (oil, hydraulics, etc), and have been stored in a controlled humidity environment (I guess they have been in a much better environment than stored Russian tanks). Of course some time will be required to get them ready and to train crews for them.
- Even if its not 40 but only 10, it opens the door for other countries with 2A4 sending some more.
- It also opens the door for more modern leopard versions to be acquired by Ukraine in the future. I'm thinking in a postwar scenario here.
RogerdeLluria
Staff Sergeant
- 1,325
- Jul 5, 2015
Regarding countries with 2A4
Turkey (354), Greece (183), Sweden (160), Chile (140), Finland (139), Poland (128), Austria (114), Spain (108), Canada (107), Indonesia (103), Singapore (96), Norway (52), Denmark (51), and Portugal (37)
Plus whatever have in storage Germany and Netherlands, who as far as I know where the original users of 2A4
I'm not counting the 380 Pz 87, wich is esentially a swiss made 2A4, due to Switzerland neutrality police.
Turkey (354), Greece (183), Sweden (160), Chile (140), Finland (139), Poland (128), Austria (114), Spain (108), Canada (107), Indonesia (103), Singapore (96), Norway (52), Denmark (51), and Portugal (37)
Plus whatever have in storage Germany and Netherlands, who as far as I know where the original users of 2A4
I'm not counting the 380 Pz 87, wich is esentially a swiss made 2A4, due to Switzerland neutrality police.
Rumours are that the Spanish offer was blocked by Germany. Not for the first time...
cammerjeff
Staff Sergeant
Funny I was leaning more towards Roland the headless Thompson Gunner myself.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
KYIV, June 12 (Reuters) - Russian forces fired cruise missiles to destroy a large depot containing U.S. and European weapons in western Ukraine's Ternopil region, Interfax reported on Sunday, as street fighting raged in the eastern city of Sievierodonetsk.
The governor of the Ternopil region said a rocket attack on the city of Chortkiv fired from the Black Sea had partly destroyed a military facility, injuring 22 people. A local official said there were no weapons stored there.
Reuters could not independently confirm the differing accounts.
Moscow has repeatedly slammed the United States and other nations for supplying Ukraine with weapons. President Vladimir Putin said earlier this month that Russia would strike new targets if the West supplied longer-range missiles to Ukraine for use in high-precision mobile rocket systems.
Russia destroys bridge over Ukrainian river, cutting escape route
Russian forces have blown up a bridge linking the embattled Ukrainian city of Sievierodonetsk to another city across the river, cutting off a possible evacuation route for civilians, local officials said on Sunday.
www.reuters.com
Biden says Zelenskyy 'didn't want to hear' US warnings of Russian invasion
US President Joe Biden accuses his Ukrainian counterpart of ignoring US intelligence, saying many people thought he was exaggerating but "there was no doubt" Russia was going to invade.
www.abc.net.au
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
What could Zelensky have possibly done?
Biden says Zelenskyy 'didn't want to hear' US warnings of Russian invasion
US President Joe Biden accuses his Ukrainian counterpart of ignoring US intelligence, saying many people thought he was exaggerating but "there was no doubt" Russia was going to invade.
If he mobilized the military before 28 February, that would have been seen as provoking Russia. As it was, Putin was clearly stating right up to 27 February, that Russian forces were on maneuvers, nothing more.
Zelensky played a delicate balancing act and letting Russia make the first move places the blame squarely on the Kremlin.
Glider
Captain
Totally agree with this view.
I agree - I was just posting the news story, not advocating one way or another.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Weren't Ukrainian planes relocated? I recall reading that the UAF had dispersed some of their planes.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The official band of the Vietnam war.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
KYIV/LVIV, June 12 (Reuters) - Russian forces have blown up a bridge linking the embattled Ukrainian city of Sievierodonetsk to another city across the river, cutting off a possible evacuation route for civilians, local officials said on Sunday.
Sievierodonetsk has become the epicenter of the battle for control over Ukraine's eastern Donbas region. Parts of the city have been pulverized in some of the bloodiest fighting since the Kremlin unleashed its invasion on Feb. 24.
"The key tactical goal of the occupiers has not changed: they are pressing in Sievierodonetsk, severe fighting is ongoing there - literally for every meter," Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiysaid in his nightly video address, adding that Russia's military was trying to deploy reserve forces to the Donbas.
Ukrainian and Russian forces were still fighting street-by-street there on Sunday, the governor of Luhansk province, Serhiy Gaidai, said.
Russian forces have taken most of the city but Ukrainian troops remain in control of an industrial area and the Azot chemical plant where hundreds of civilians are sheltering.
But the Russians had destroyed a bridge over the Siverskyi Donets River linking Sievierodonetsk with its twin city of Lysychansk, Gaidai said.
That left just one of three bridges still standing.
"If after new shelling the bridge collapses, the city will truly be cut off. There will be no way of leaving Sievierodonetsk in a vehicle," Gaidai said, noting the lack of a cease-fire agreement and no agreed evacuation corridors.
The head of the Sievierodonetsk administration said a little more than a third of the city remained under the control of Ukrainian forces, with about two thirds in Russian hands.
Russia destroys bridge over Ukrainian river, cutting escape route
Russian forces have blown up a bridge linking the embattled Ukrainian city of Sievierodonetsk to another city across the river, cutting off a possible evacuation route for civilians, local officials said on Sunday.
www.reuters.com
Additionally, I heard on BBC today on the way home from work that the Russian bombardment of the chemical plant in the city has resulted in a large fire, which could obviously be very dangerous depending on the chemicals produced and stored on-site.
Admiral Beez
Major
I'd support Canada donating all eighty-two of our Leo 2s. We only borrowed and then bought the Leo 2 for Canada's Afghanistan operation and haven't deployed them in strength in over a decade.
Admiral Beez
Major
Sievierodonetsk is lost, same as Mariupol. Not that Ukraine can't retake them both and more through their summer and autumn offensive…. if Ukraine can get the weapons it needs and maintain the fickle interest of the West.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
We in the west owe them everything we can give.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Fortunes of war can be difficult to predict, especially in an urban environment.
The city is not lost until the Russians have 100% control.
The city is not lost until the Russians have 100% control.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Some bits of history for anyone not aware of them already.
On the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
From Wiki: According to the memorandum Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:
1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments."
In 2013 the US violated the Article #3 of the Memorandum by imposing economic sanctions against Belarus.
In 2014 the Russian Federation violated Articles #1 and #2 of the Memorandum by deploying Russian Special Force troops (wearing no identifying uniform insignia) in Crimea, seizing airports and strategic points including the Crimean Verkhovna Rada (~Federal building). During the subsequent occupation a Russian administered referendum for independence was held. Crimea was then annexed to the Russian Federation.
Also in 2014 the Russian Federation violated Articles #1 and #2 of the Memorandum by deploying Russian Special Forces and regular troops (again without uniform insignia) into eastern Ukraine. These RF troops joined up with Ukrainian separatists in the Donbas region and began a war that still continues.
In 2014 after the RF annexation of Crimea the US again violated Article #3 of the Memorandum (because the US refused to recognize the RF annexation of Crimea) by imposing economic sanctions on Crimea-based separatist leaders Sergey Aksyonov and Vladimir Konstantinov; Viktor Medvedchuk (former Ukrainian Presidential Chief of Staff); and Viktor Yanukovych (former Governor of Donetsk Oblast 1997-2002, Prime Minister 2002-2004 and President 2010-2014 of Ukraine).
In February 2016, RF Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov claimed, "Russia never violated Budapest memorandum. It contained only one obligation, not to attack Ukraine with nukes." However, Canadian journalist Michael Colborne pointed out that "there are actually six obligations in the Budapest Memorandum, and the first of them is 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine'". Colborne also pointed out that a broadcast of Lavrov's claim on the Twitter account of Russia's embassy in the United Kingdom actually "provided a link to the text of the Budapest Memorandum itself with all six obligations, including the ones Russia has clearly violated – right there for everyone to see."
There were also several Russian attempts at economic coercion and numerous cyber warfare incidents, all with the intent to destabilize the Ukrainian government, thus violating Article #3 of the Memorandum.
Also, a possible rational for Putin's tune of "denazification" of Ukraine?
Again from Wiki:
en.wikipedia.org
On 15 May 2015, President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko signed a set of laws that started a six-month period for the removal of communist monuments (excluding WWII monuments) and renaming of public places named after communist-related themes. At the time, this meant that 22 cities and 44 villages were set to get new names. Until 21 November 2015, municipal governments had the authority to implement this; if they failed to do so, the Oblasts of Ukraine had until 21 May 2016 to change the names. If after that date the settlement had retained its old name, the Cabinet Ministers of Ukraine would wield authority to assign a new name to the settlement. In 2016, 51,493 streets and 987 cities and villages were renamed, and 1,320 and 1,069 monuments to other communist figures removed. Violation of the law carries a penalty of a potential media ban and prison sentences of up to five years.
On 24 July 2015, the Ministry of the Interior stripped the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Communist Party of Ukraine (renewed), and the Communist Party of Workers and Peasants of their right to participate in elections and stated it was continuing the court actions that started in July 2014 to end the registration of communist parties in Ukraine. By 16 December 2015, these three parties had been banned in Ukraine; however, the Communist Party of Ukraine appealed the ban, meaning the court's decision to ban the party did not come into force. The April 2015 decommunization law contains a norm that allows the Ministry of Justice to prohibit the party from participating in elections.
On the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances
From Wiki: According to the memorandum Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively abandoning their nuclear arsenal to Russia and that they agreed to the following:
1. Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.
2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine to influence their politics.
4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".
5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine.
6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments."
In 2013 the US violated the Article #3 of the Memorandum by imposing economic sanctions against Belarus.
In 2014 the Russian Federation violated Articles #1 and #2 of the Memorandum by deploying Russian Special Force troops (wearing no identifying uniform insignia) in Crimea, seizing airports and strategic points including the Crimean Verkhovna Rada (~Federal building). During the subsequent occupation a Russian administered referendum for independence was held. Crimea was then annexed to the Russian Federation.
Also in 2014 the Russian Federation violated Articles #1 and #2 of the Memorandum by deploying Russian Special Forces and regular troops (again without uniform insignia) into eastern Ukraine. These RF troops joined up with Ukrainian separatists in the Donbas region and began a war that still continues.
In 2014 after the RF annexation of Crimea the US again violated Article #3 of the Memorandum (because the US refused to recognize the RF annexation of Crimea) by imposing economic sanctions on Crimea-based separatist leaders Sergey Aksyonov and Vladimir Konstantinov; Viktor Medvedchuk (former Ukrainian Presidential Chief of Staff); and Viktor Yanukovych (former Governor of Donetsk Oblast 1997-2002, Prime Minister 2002-2004 and President 2010-2014 of Ukraine).
In February 2016, RF Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov claimed, "Russia never violated Budapest memorandum. It contained only one obligation, not to attack Ukraine with nukes." However, Canadian journalist Michael Colborne pointed out that "there are actually six obligations in the Budapest Memorandum, and the first of them is 'to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine'". Colborne also pointed out that a broadcast of Lavrov's claim on the Twitter account of Russia's embassy in the United Kingdom actually "provided a link to the text of the Budapest Memorandum itself with all six obligations, including the ones Russia has clearly violated – right there for everyone to see."
There were also several Russian attempts at economic coercion and numerous cyber warfare incidents, all with the intent to destabilize the Ukrainian government, thus violating Article #3 of the Memorandum.
Also, a possible rational for Putin's tune of "denazification" of Ukraine?
Again from Wiki:
Decommunization in Ukraine - Wikipedia
On 15 May 2015, President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko signed a set of laws that started a six-month period for the removal of communist monuments (excluding WWII monuments) and renaming of public places named after communist-related themes. At the time, this meant that 22 cities and 44 villages were set to get new names. Until 21 November 2015, municipal governments had the authority to implement this; if they failed to do so, the Oblasts of Ukraine had until 21 May 2016 to change the names. If after that date the settlement had retained its old name, the Cabinet Ministers of Ukraine would wield authority to assign a new name to the settlement. In 2016, 51,493 streets and 987 cities and villages were renamed, and 1,320 and 1,069 monuments to other communist figures removed. Violation of the law carries a penalty of a potential media ban and prison sentences of up to five years.
On 24 July 2015, the Ministry of the Interior stripped the Communist Party of Ukraine, the Communist Party of Ukraine (renewed), and the Communist Party of Workers and Peasants of their right to participate in elections and stated it was continuing the court actions that started in July 2014 to end the registration of communist parties in Ukraine. By 16 December 2015, these three parties had been banned in Ukraine; however, the Communist Party of Ukraine appealed the ban, meaning the court's decision to ban the party did not come into force. The April 2015 decommunization law contains a norm that allows the Ministry of Justice to prohibit the party from participating in elections.
