Admiral Beez
Captain
Ukraine rocks social.
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Very well done appeal.Ukraine rocks social.
There are implications if a modern western tank were to be captured by the Russians.
Abrams, Challengers, Lecerc and Ariette, etc. are less available
Anyone else notice that putins name wasn't capitalised?Ukraine rocks social.
I doubt that would happen though. Poland was afraid to give over some MiG-29s without everyone's backing, and Germany is still mollycoddling about Leo2 tanks. These are not the sort of nations that would unilaterally attack Russia.
Are they less available? Lets look at some facts.
Production numbers:
M1 Abrams: 10,400
Leopard 2: 3,600
M1A1 Abrams: 6,109
M1A2 Abrams: 2,855
M1A2 Abrams SEP: 3,273
Challenger 1: 420
Challenger 2: 447
Leclerc: 862
Mercava: approx: 2,000
Seems to me there is a lot of Abram's to go around.
Now, while I personally would love to see some Leopard 2's shipped off to Ukraine, I don't think its as easy as you want to keep pushing. If it was, then all sorts of MBT's would already be fighting the Russians including Leopards and Abrams, as it does not matter what Ukraine is asking for.
Existence in quantity does not necessarily equal availability. The Leopard 2 is operated by several NATO and European countries, becoming one of the most widely distributed MBTs. For example, Spain offered their Leopard 2s, until they were suddenly deemed worthy of nothing more than a scrap heap. With German support and enough money from NATO I'm sure those tanks could have been reactivated, even if it takes a year, if started six months ago Ukraine could get them in spring 2023.Are they less available? Lets look at some facts.
Existence in quantity does not necessarily equal availability. The Leopard 2 is operated by several NATO and European countries, becoming one of the most widely distributed MBTs. For example, Spain offered their Leopard 2s, until they were suddenly deemed worthy of nothing more than a scrap heap. With German support and enough money from NATO I'm sure those tanks could have been reactivated, even if it takes a year, if started six months ago Ukraine could get them in spring 2023.
But put aside the Leo. Ukraine is going to need more tanks in the spring, and there aren't a lot of T-72s etc. left to send. So, what does the West do for Ukraine?
I think now when the combat area is in winter slowdown the best that can happen in tank terms is for the US in warm southern states, and Australia, to train the Ukrainians on some readily available semi modern tanks. Early Abrams and Leopards are plentiful - lets get them moving
I strongly discount the intelligence value of any 40 year old tank (or other weapon as old as the Abrams and Leo2) as the Russians will already have a well stocked archive of information on them and find nothing they do not already know. As far as I can see the big downsides of the Abrams are the maintenance workload and the fuel burn. The Leopards seem to have a history of dying of old age (due lack of factory support) quite early - the first Leo2's are only a couple of years older than the Abrams but it seems like many of the users have decided theirs are beyond salvage as the spares are no longer available.
If Britain intervenes in Ukraine it's essentially declared war, if on a limited scale (initially) on Russia in all theatres, not just within Ukraine or the Black Sea. We must then expect the Russian navy, including its twenty-five SSNs and SSGNs plus twenty SSKs to sail into the North Atlantic to destroy undersea communications cables and otherwise disrupt trade. Russia's only means of hitting back at Britain is through the air and sea, so it will be a RN and RAF home defence affair, much less the army. That's why the decline of the RN is worrisome.
If you think there is a shortfall now, wait until the next UK budget. I would be amazed if one of the new carries doesn't get mothballed
So, what does Ukraine do for tanks as the war drags onto summer and autumn 2023?T ThomasP good points. So, what does Ukraine do for tanks as the war drags onto summer and autumn 2023? There must be a thousand T-72s rolling around Africa and the Middle East. Doesn't Iraq have a lot? Perhaps the local despots can be convinced to part with them.
I wonder if those Korean tanks ordered by Poland will end up in Ukraine, since the former has Abrams now.
Whatever the challenges they are not insurmountable. Had NATO decided six months ago that Leopard 2 tanks would be provided "eventually" to Ukraine, many of the challenges around operator and mechanic training, spares, logistics and support could have been worked on, with a goal to provide the tanks to Ukraine in spring 2023. Surely a year plus is long enough for the Ukrainians to effectively deploy, use and support modern Western MBTs? I'm hoping that behind the scenes, away from the media and war bloggers this very scenario is underway.My point is this, there is much more to it than simply putting tanks on a boat or train and sending then to Ukraine.
No one is suggesting otherwise.