"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (13 Viewers)

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SaparotRob said:
Very informative article. Who would have ever thought the PZH 2000 would be used in a war?
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It seems that much of the NATO kit was not designed to be used outside of the parade ground and occasional, constrained exercises. Anything that shoots or rolls is going to wear out, but then you need to have a ready supply of maintenance support and replacement parts.

I wonder how many of the artillery and vehicles provided to Ukraine are currently out of service due to lack of spares or essential maintenance. In advance of the Battle of Kursk, of Germany's 184 Panthers, after one day only about forty were operational due to breakdowns. Reliability is essential.
 
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No, what was expected was a war measured in days that would end with a nuclear exchange. When I was in the 1st Armored Division in Germany in 1984 we were expected to be a speed bump at best.

That or a war essentially like the colonial wars we've fought since the end of WWII where our ability to swap broken gear out made their long-term use unlikely. None of the wars in the sandbox had the sustained rates of fire that AFU has needed. It does not surprise me that they are wearing out their artillery faster than we would have anticipated given the difference in usage patterns.

This is also one of the many reasons no one is in a rush to give them modern western tanks either.
 
wlewisiii said:
This is also one of the many reasons no one is in a rush to give them modern western tanks either.
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Good point. The best approach then is to give Ukraine ALL the western tanks, spares and maintenance tools they need to smash the Russians in one big concentrated offensive, presumably on Melitopol, rather than in penny packets.

 
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Okay, Chancellor Scholz won't send tanks to Ukraine until the U.S. does. Screw it! We find 88 older M-1s and send them. We'll need transporters and a crap load of diesel (and that's just for the transporters). Just drive them across the Polish border. Something something Budapest Memorandum. Dump them and high-tail it back. Okay Germany, we sent tanks.
Simple mind, simple solution.
 
GrauGeist said:
Great, send M1s and Leopards to Ukraine right now and they'll be ready for combat in about 6 months.

It takes roughly 22 weeks to train an M1 crew...
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Nope, just dump them there. Use as training mules, paper weights, whatever. Basically it's "put up or shut up" re: the Leopards. Like we don't have M-1s scheduled for retirement.
I wasn't being all that serious.
 
WARSPITER said:
At last count Ukraine had about six.
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Weren't they mostly sold to Thailand?

List of equipment of the Royal Thai Army - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember reading how Soviet-era ineptitude and lack of funding in production was prevalent across much of recently-independent Ukraine back then. Here's the Kharkiv factory from five or so years ago - clearly this place was not making much of anything.


Look for the cats playing around a static production line at 0:15.


The Ukraine that emerges from this war must become something it never was, a westernized, modern economy with controls on corruption, a strong bureaucracy, etc.
 
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Thailand cancelled their orders for the Oplot in 2017 after problems with manufacture arose due to the turmoil of 2014. Thailand
received from 15 to 20 vehicles depending on the source. Another order (around 100) went to China.

Ukraine originally kept 10 for testing and so on but that was about it. There was even a model built to house a NATO gun platform
which was demonstrated in Turkey.
 

KYIV, Dec 11 (Reuters) - Ukraine attacked occupied Melitopol in the country's southeast on Saturday evening, the Russian-installed and exiled Ukrainian authorities of the strategically located city said.

The pro-Moscow authorities said a missile attack killed two people and wounded 10, while the exiled mayor said scores of "invaders" were killed.

Reuters could not independently verify the reports of the attacks or deaths.

"Air defence systems destroyed two missiles, four reached their targets," Yevgeny Balitsky, the Moscow-appointed governor of the occupied part of the Zaporizhzhia region, said on the Telegram messaging app.

Ukraine attacks occupied Melitopol, Russian side says two killed

Ukraine attacked occupied Melitopol in the country's southeast on Saturday evening, the Russian-installed and exiled Ukrainian authorities of the strategically located city said.
www.reuters.com

I wonder if this isn't the start of softening-up in preparation for another offensive once the ground freezes.
 
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