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DAVIDICUS said:That is an interesting article Soren. I wish I had the USAAF and USN studies that state differently. All I know is their conclusions. Perhaps their tests were based on field testing and not solely on mathematical calculations as the site you have offered.
FLYBOYJ said:I think talking about taking hits and how much damage each aircraft is going to absorb is rubbish. I believe if either aircraft during this "hypethetcial" dogfight places themseft in a position where the're taking on hits is doomed - end of story. Sure we could arge how much more powerful a 20mm round is over a .50 cal, and how much or little each aircraft could absorb, but bottom line, the minute you're getting hit, its time to put the throttle to the wall, go to high prop pitch and RUN LIKE HELL!
Now Soren, NO FAIR - you keep that clipped wing thing out of this! If not I'm gonna get my Goodyear F2G and put 20mms on it
DAVIDICUS said:. I would be interested in learning how the site you referred me to came to a different conclusion from the American tests. Something obviously doesn't add up.
I think FLYBOYJ hit the nail on the head here. Either aircraft carries ample weaponry to blast the other from the sky.
Oh, before I forget, you mentioned the clipped wing version of the Mk XIV. There were two versions of the F4U-4 too. The other had four 20mm cannons.
DAVIDICUS said:"What doesnt add up ?"
That site's conclusions vs. the USAAF and USN's conclusions. You asserted that the MkXIVe had a superior armament and I claimed that it was roughly equal to the F4U-4. You and I were relying on conclusions from different sources remember?
DAVIDICUS said:Additionally, compared to the Corsair, the Spitfire had a glass jaw and yes, four .50 cal. hits to it's powerplant could very well inflict fatal damage. (I established this through the recital of RAF tests of the .50's ability to penetrate hardened armor plate.) Lastly, I know you are well aware that the P-51 was vulnerable to 8x57mm hits to its engine. The implication are rather obvious.
Soren said:The US Air force conducted tests late in the war and concluded that a single 20mm had the effectiveness of two .50's. The US Navy also conducted tests and concluded that a single 20mm had the effectivenss of 2.5 .50's.
Read this: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
The 20mm Hispano Mk.II was over 4 times as powerful pr round, and the gun itself 3.3 times as powerful as the M2 Browning.
Also a single 20mm round in one of the Corsair's fuel tanks, and "CABOOM !!".....the Corsair is finished. While a .50 cal round won't explode a fuel tank at all, highest having it rupture after multiple hits.
Soren said:Also the destructiveness of the 20mm Hispano round decreases much more slowly than the .50 cal round, making it better at longer ranges.
Soren said:Soren, who said anything about surface damage?
Surface damage is one of the most destructive types of damage an a/c can recieve.
Soren said:The .50 could easily penetrate into and penetrate critical areas. And yes, I was talking about .50 strikes in "key" spots such as the engine which I specifically referenced.
But what are the chances the .50's are going to penetrate the Engine block ? I can tell you that they are slim to none ! The .50's simply don't have the penetrating power to penetrate the engine block at the angles obtained in a dogfight. And the chance of hitting anything vital other than the engine is also very small with the relatively low RoF pr gun.
Soren said:If the Browning M2 had a better RoF it would have been better, as then it could deliver a more lethal dose of surface damage at the time, but fact is it didnt. (Wich is why the Brits rejected the M2 so many times)
Six .50's firing at a rate of 850 rpm means 85 rounds per second that are set to converge within a three foot circle at 300 yards.
That circle is going to be alot bigger when the plane is flying because of all the vibrations caused by the engine and propeller.
Soren said:While the initial climb of the two aircraft is about the same, the Spit XIV will climb away after short time, and is also slightly faster in straight flight, thus the Spit dominates the fight.
FLYBOYJ said:I think talking about taking hits and how much damage each aircraft is going to absorb is rubbish. I believe if either aircraft during this "hypethetcial" dogfight places themseft in a position where the're taking on hits is doomed - end of story. Sure we could arge how much more powerful a 20mm round is over a .50 cal, and how much or little each aircraft could absorb, but bottom line, the minute you're getting hit, its time to put the throttle to the wall, go to high prop pitch and RUN LIKE HELL!
Now Soren, NO FAIR - you keep that clipped wing thing out of this! If not I'm gonna get my Goodyear F2G and put 20mms on it
Soren said:DAVIDICUS said:Additionally, compared to the Corsair, the Spitfire had a glass jaw and yes, four .50 cal. hits to it's powerplant could very well inflict fatal damage. (I established this through the recital of RAF tests of the .50's ability to penetrate hardened armor plate.) Lastly, I know you are well aware that the P-51 was vulnerable to 8x57mm hits to its engine. The implication are rather obvious.
David the angles of ballistic hits accuring in dogfights are often over 40-60 degrees from vertical, where the 8x57mm and .50 cal will not penetrate the engine block.
Soren said:However if four .50's hit the engine block at 0-30 degrees from vertical, the engine is out. But by comparison a single 20mm hit on the Corsairs engine, and its blown out of the sky ! The same will happen if one of its internal fuel tanks are hit by 20mm Hispano round.
Soren said:This is why 2xHispano's are more effective than 4x.50's.
While I agree the Spitfire could probably "turn-and-burn" better than the Corsair, I think they are more evenly matched in this regaurd than Soren does. And at high speeds, they would be virtually even.
As for the clipped wing Spit, it would not have turned so well, it traded turn rate for RoR, and this got pretty severe above mid altitudes.
In general, I'd say the Spit XIV probably wins the fight above 30K, the F4U-4 probably wins below 22K, and inbetween it's very even.
As for level speeds, the F4U-4 was capable of 464 mph!
Any .50 API hit to the fuel tanks and the likely result... KABOOM!
and British self-sealing tanks weren't quite as good as US self-sealing tanks.
What? Soren, the .50 API round could penetrate a engine block at least to the crank case from 500 meters.
What? R2800's were known to take tremendous damage and continue to run for hundreds of miles. Whole cylinders could be blown off and the plane would keep on flying.
And again, the Corsair only has the one fuel tank, and comparatively, it is very well protected. It is very unlikely a 20mm HE round would reach the fuel tank, it would take a shot almost strait up from the bottom or at 90 degrees off to either side.
Soren said:RG the Hispano MK.II had RPS of 10, while the Browning M2 .50 cal had an RPS of 13=
Hispano Mk.II: 600 rpm
M2 .50 cal: 780 rpm
Not such a big difference now is it ?
Soren said:Also don't forget that the Spit XIV carried 2xHispano's "PLUS" 2x.50's !
Soren said:While I agree the Spitfire could probably "turn-and-burn" better than the Corsair, I think they are more evenly matched in this regaurd than Soren does. And at high speeds, they would be virtually even.
Probably ??!!!
RG look at the wing and power loadings for the two aircraft, and it should be pretty obvious that the Spit XIV is a MUCH better T&B fighter !
Soren said:As for the clipped wing Spit, it would not have turned so well, it traded turn rate for RoR, and this got pretty severe above mid altitudes.
Source ??!!
The wings were clipped to improve low altitude maneuverability !!
Soren said:Anyway the Spit XIV CW would still easely outturn the Corsair, and now also roll with it !
Soren said:In general, I'd say the Spit XIV probably wins the fight above 30K, the F4U-4 probably wins below 22K, and inbetween it's very even.
Below 3,000m or above 7,500m and the Corsair is in BIG trouble against a Spit XIV.e !
Soren said:As for level speeds, the F4U-4 was capable of 464 mph!
I think you missed something ! :
F4U-4 Max speed: 446 mph